Jumping from airline to corporate?

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wallypilot
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Re: Jumping from airline to corporate?

#26 Post by wallypilot » Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:21 pm

Just as an observation, I’ve never seen (well, on my short 20yrs around YVR) so much heavy metal on the premises, and planned new additions. Corporate has gone through some ups and downs, and does follow boom and bust cycles a little, it commercial airlines are entirely helping corporate operations as it is so painful and such a time waste to travel airlines if you are able to afford an alternative.

Just my $.02.
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Re: Jumping from airline to corporate?

#27 Post by rippey » Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:13 am

I think one of the larger changes that has occurred over the past 10 years is that most of the business aircraft being added to the Canadian fleet are owned by high net worth individuals rather than corporations. There are advantages and disadvantages to this - the biggest advantage is that the owner doesn't have to justify the expense to the bean counters and shareholders. Try explaining to the accountants why it cost $120,000 in doc's to fly 3 people from Toronto to a meeting in London when air Canada fired business class seats over there a dozen times that day for a tenth of the cost or less.
Provided that the management company has been somewhat honest in educating owners about the true cost of operating their shiny new toy, I think the job stability can be as good, or better in some cases than true corporate operators. Unfortunately there are a number of owners that didn't get the memo that the 2 million they spent on that 25 year old challenger is just the cover charge to get in the party, and that landing 400 hrs of charter to pay for the 50 hrs they plan on using it isn't going to happen.
Of course the biggest disadvantage is that is that it has become increasingly difficult to get set up with your own 604 ticket since TC took it back, and you have no chance of doing charter to offset some of your costs unless you take it to a management company. The unfortunate thing for us pilots is there are very few costs that can be negotiated when a management company is bidding for a new aircraft to join the fleet without hurting their bottom line, but payroll offers some wiggle room. This is why the salary and benefits package at the management companies will seldom if ever be competitive with the corporate departments. It can still be great if you fly for a good owner that values skill and experience and is willing to pay to keep it, it can be terrible if you get an owner that is looking for the cheapest warm bodies that can occupy front seats. I work for a management company, fly a fantastic airplane all over the world, work with great people, really like the owner I fly for, and genuinely love every minute of my job, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't shed a little tear when I see what other guys are making in the same seat of the same type I fly. I learned early in this industry that who you work for is far more important than the numbers on my paycheck, and I am 100% sure I am happier where I am than I'd be at the airlines, but to each their own. That being said, if you are looking to make it into 250k/yr crowd I'd stick to airlines, it exists in corporate, but getting there is going to depend mostly on luck than just biding your time watching your number go up.
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Re: Jumping from airline to corporate?

#28 Post by JohnnyHotRocks » Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:30 pm

A big problem with management companies is the fact that they CHARGE the aircraft owner a great deal more in salaries than they actual pay the pilots. I would be willing to bet that most owners think the pilots are making a good salary, because they are paying a good salary...it just doesn't get passed on.
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Re: Jumping from airline to corporate?

#29 Post by drivers driver » Thu Oct 12, 2017 3:22 pm

I totally agree with "JohnnyHotRocks", at less in some case, this is happening.
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Re: Jumping from airline to corporate?

#30 Post by wallypilot » Sat Oct 14, 2017 8:07 am

JohnnyHotRocks wrote:A big problem with management companies is the fact that they CHARGE the aircraft owner a great deal more in salaries than they actual pay the pilots. I would be willing to bet that most owners think the pilots are making a good salary, because they are paying a good salary...it just doesn't get passed on.
I know some who work for a large management co where the owner pays the pilots directly...no middleman for the pilots salaries. So not every management situation is the same, even within the same management company.
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Re: Jumping from airline to corporate?

#31 Post by Broker » Sat Oct 14, 2017 10:09 am

wallypilot wrote:
JohnnyHotRocks wrote:A big problem with management companies is the fact that they CHARGE the aircraft owner a great deal more in salaries than they actual pay the pilots. I would be willing to bet that most owners think the pilots are making a good salary, because they are paying a good salary...it just doesn't get passed on.
I know some who work for a large management co where the owner pays the pilots directly...no middleman for the pilots salaries. So not every management situation is the same, even within the same management company.
There are management companies that are transparent in disclosure to their clients as well. In those cases, salaries and benefits are flow through charges, no mark-up and no withhold. Salary skimming is getting more difficult with increasing transparency.
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Re: Jumping from airline to corporate?

#32 Post by skybluetrek » Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:33 am

Interesting thread.
Are there many differences for pilots flying small turboprops for a management company instead of jets? Would conditions be even worse, or there are some advantages in that case?

Thanks.
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Re: Jumping from airline to corporate?

#33 Post by wallypilot » Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:10 pm

skybluetrek wrote:Interesting thread.
Are there many differences for pilots flying small turboprops for a management company instead of jets? Would conditions be even worse, or there are some advantages in that case?

Thanks.
You make it sound like flying a jet for a management Co is bad. But in all honesty, there are great jobs in corporate and crappy jobs in corporate and every shade in between. Just like airlines, even within the same airline, there are crappy jobs and good jobs. Same goes for a management company. There are good and bad management companies, and within those companies there are good and bad jobs. The key in corporate is not so much the aircraft type, as the owner. Everything depends on the behavior, demeanor, and personality of the owner. If you have a good owner, you will have a good job, whether it’s a Twin Cessna, PC12, Challenger or a BBJ, and no matter if it’s a managed or private op. I know guys that make more as a PC12 capt for a private 604 op than some guys make as capt on a challenger 300 for a fractional operation.

But to answer your original question, I would expect pay in a management company to be lower on a turbo prop than a jet. But that’s not guaranteed, and it also doesn’t mean it’s a bad job.
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Re: Jumping from airline to corporate?

#34 Post by skkfdk » Wed Oct 18, 2017 7:26 am

Perhaps thanks to the airlines and their growth and massive hiring , it could potentially see a positive change in pay and conditions in the industry.

Just a optimistic thought. Now growth in Canadian economy is another subject somewhere else.
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Re: Jumping from airline to corporate?

#35 Post by JeppsOnFire » Wed Oct 18, 2017 8:57 am

skkfdk wrote:Perhaps thanks to the airlines and their growth and massive hiring , it could potentially see a positive change in pay and conditions in the industry.

Just a optimistic thought. Now growth in Canadian economy is another subject somewhere else.
This is certainly already happening. Seems the popular idea right now is airlines. Even some well paid Corp jet folks are heading over to the airlines. Not sure what the motivation is - perhaps just a change of lifestyle. The lack of schedule in many cases is the primary reason. In turn - jobs at the corporate level have been difficult to fill and the options have become plentiful. Also, salaries have seen the biggest jump I've ever seen. Headhunting has also begun and the carrot this time around is fat salaries. I'm a corporate jet guy with plenty of experience and the jet world is my oyster. I can pretty much take any job tailored to what's important to me with the bonus of making more money than ever before.

The whole industry from airlines to 703 has felt the change.
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Re: Jumping from airline to corporate?

#36 Post by nottellin » Wed Oct 18, 2017 11:50 am

The problem with those increase is they can be snatched away at the blink of an eye, A little harder in a unionized airline environment. A great Corporate job can turn into a crappy corporate job pretty quickly. Thats why I bailed. The only thing I miss is the hotels and rental cars.
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Re: Jumping from airline to corporate?

#37 Post by skybluetrek » Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:00 pm

wallypilot wrote:
skybluetrek wrote:Interesting thread.
Are there many differences for pilots flying small turboprops for a management company instead of jets? Would conditions be even worse, or there are some advantages in that case?

Thanks.
You make it sound like flying a jet for a management Co is bad. But in all honesty, there are great jobs in corporate and crappy jobs in corporate and every shade in between. Just like airlines, even within the same airline, there are crappy jobs and good jobs. Same goes for a management company. There are good and bad management companies, and within those companies there are good and bad jobs. The key in corporate is not so much the aircraft type, as the owner. Everything depends on the behavior, demeanor, and personality of the owner. If you have a good owner, you will have a good job, whether it’s a Twin Cessna, PC12, Challenger or a BBJ, and no matter if it’s a managed or private op. I know guys that make more as a PC12 capt for a private 604 op than some guys make as capt on a challenger 300 for a fractional operation.

But to answer your original question, I would expect pay in a management company to be lower on a turbo prop than a jet. But that’s not guaranteed, and it also doesn’t mean it’s a bad job.
Thanks for the reply.
I didn't mean to undervalue working for a management company. It was after reading some of the comments above that I perhaps formulated the question in the wrong way.
I strongly believe biz aviation in general has a lot more to offer to the right type of individuals than airlines do.
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Re: Jumping from airline to corporate?

#38 Post by nottellin » Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:13 pm

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Re: Jumping from airline to corporate?

#39 Post by nottellin » Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:15 pm

skybluetrek wrote: Thanks for the reply.
I didn't mean to undervalue working for a management company. It was after reading some of the comments above that I perhaps formulated the question in the wrong way.
I strongly believe biz aviation in general has a lot more to offer to the right type of individuals than airlines do.
Thats what I thought :roll:
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Re: Jumping from airline to corporate?

#40 Post by skybluetrek » Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:52 pm

nottellin wrote:
skybluetrek wrote: Thanks for the reply.
I didn't mean to undervalue working for a management company. It was after reading some of the comments above that I perhaps formulated the question in the wrong way.
I strongly believe biz aviation in general has a lot more to offer to the right type of individuals than airlines do.
Thats what I thought :roll:
And I guess it wasn't the case...? :goodman:
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Re: Jumping from airline to corporate?

#41 Post by goingnowherefast » Wed Oct 18, 2017 4:13 pm

wallypilot wrote:
JohnnyHotRocks wrote:A big problem with management companies is the fact that they CHARGE the aircraft owner a great deal more in salaries than they actual pay the pilots. I would be willing to bet that most owners think the pilots are making a good salary, because they are paying a good salary...it just doesn't get passed on.
I know some who work for a large management co where the owner pays the pilots directly...no middleman for the pilots salaries. So not every management situation is the same, even within the same management company.
I worked for a management company for a short period. The other pilot was employed by and paid by the owner directly. I was paid by the management company. I saw the bill one day and my salary was 90% of what was billed to the owner.
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Re: Jumping from airline to corporate?

#42 Post by JeppsOnFire » Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:40 pm

nottellin wrote:The problem with those increase is they can be snatched away at the blink of an eye, A little harder in a unionized airline environment. A great Corporate job can turn into a crappy corporate job pretty quickly. Thats why I bailed. The only thing I miss is the hotels and rental cars.
That is a valid point. However, FWIW I've been in it over 15 years and I have never experienced a paycut. Pay freeze once. Not many jobs offer perfect certainty - just look at the Shell Flight department, Suncor, Canadian Airlines, U.S. Airways etc.
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Re: Jumping from airline to corporate?

#43 Post by wallypilot » Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:04 am

JeppsOnFire wrote:
nottellin wrote:The problem with those increase is they can be snatched away at the blink of an eye, A little harder in a unionized airline environment. A great Corporate job can turn into a crappy corporate job pretty quickly. Thats why I bailed. The only thing I miss is the hotels and rental cars.
That is a valid point. However, FWIW I've been in it over 15 years and I have never experienced a paycut. Pay freeze once. Not many jobs offer perfect certainty - just look at the Shell Flight department, Suncor, Canadian Airlines, U.S. Airways etc.
Same with me. Definitely a couple stagnant years at the beginning, but after about 3 years into the corporate world, pay raises and working conditions improved steadily and continue to now that I am 11 years in corporate flying.
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Re: Jumping from airline to corporate?

#44 Post by mountainking3 » Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:31 am

goingnowherefast wrote:
wallypilot wrote:
JohnnyHotRocks wrote:A big problem with management companies is the fact that they CHARGE the aircraft owner a great deal more in salaries than they actual pay the pilots. I would be willing to bet that most owners think the pilots are making a good salary, because they are paying a good salary...it just doesn't get passed on.
I know some who work for a large management co where the owner pays the pilots directly...no middleman for the pilots salaries. So not every management situation is the same, even within the same management company.
I worked for a management company for a short period. The other pilot was employed by and paid by the owner directly. I was paid by the management company. I saw the bill one day and my salary was 90% of what was billed to the owner.

Although I've heard of management companies trying to get away with charging aircraft owners more for crew salaries then what they're paying the pilots - I think it's rare these days.
Keep in mind that there's a payroll burden associated with your employment, which is where the extra 10% getting billed to your owner may be coming from.
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Re: Jumping from airline to corporate?

#45 Post by wallypilot » Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:12 pm

mountainking3 wrote:
Although I've heard of management companies trying to get away with charging aircraft owners more for crew salaries then what they're paying the pilots - I think it's rare these days.
Keep in mind that there's a payroll burden associated with your employment, which is where the extra 10% getting billed to your owner may be coming from.
While a valid point, the actual fiscal payroll burden is nowhere near 10%. Once initial payroll is set up, it is about 1 hr work per pay period for the entire salaried group. So one hour every two weeks for the year for the entire management company is about 24 hours a year to process payroll...add a few hours for new hires and processing ROE’s, plus another couple grand a year for payroll software...you get the point....no way is it worth 10% of one salary....maybe .25% plus some profit makes it .50%.

But yes the management co does incur a bit of cost for payroll. But don’t kid yourself...they milk it big time if they are billing 10%.
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Re: Jumping from airline to corporate?

#46 Post by mountainking3 » Fri Oct 20, 2017 8:45 am

wallypilot wrote:
mountainking3 wrote:
Although I've heard of management companies trying to get away with charging aircraft owners more for crew salaries then what they're paying the pilots - I think it's rare these days.
Keep in mind that there's a payroll burden associated with your employment, which is where the extra 10% getting billed to your owner may be coming from.
While a valid point, the actual fiscal payroll burden is nowhere near 10%. Once initial payroll is set up, it is about 1 hr work per pay period for the entire salaried group. So one hour every two weeks for the year for the entire management company is about 24 hours a year to process payroll...add a few hours for new hires and processing ROE’s, plus another couple grand a year for payroll software...you get the point....no way is it worth 10% of one salary....maybe .25% plus some profit makes it .50%.

But yes the management co does incur a bit of cost for payroll. But don’t kid yourself...they milk it big time if they are billing 10%.
It's all case-by-case (company) based...
If you're working for any one of the "major" corporate operators in Canada, the payroll burden could easily be higher than 10%. It all depends on what's offered under your employment agreement.
If you company offers benefits like comprehensive health/dental plans, RRSP contribution matching, employee insurance, ect. - these are all factors which affect what the payroll burden rate would be.
There's also other standard factors like federal employer tax, CPP, workers comp, ect., which are factored into the burden rate.
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Re: Jumping from airline to corporate?

#47 Post by Canadian Skyhawk » Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:58 pm

In my pre-aviation days at several large multinationals, the rule of thumb for employee cost was salary + 25%. That is what we budgeted when we considered adding one headcount. Of course, that included a slew of non-salary benefits paid by the company, including corporate matching of RRSP contributions, comprehensive dental/optical/medical/family insurance, employer EI contributions....in addition to payroll administration. The list was very long. I'm not saying that some management outfits aren't gouging, but each case is different and depends greatly on what employers give beyond straight salary.
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Re: Jumping from airline to corporate?

#48 Post by confusedalot » Sun Nov 12, 2017 7:17 pm

I ended up in a corporate operation 5 years after 9/11. Lost the airline job along with everyone else post 9/11.

Also lost that corporate job after the 2008 financial panic, along with 1500 other ''non flight department'' employees a mere 2 years into the job.

Although it was a great job with a rather large, actually very large corporation, with all of the top level benefits, the moral of the story is that you just cannot escape big time life events......no matter how good the job is, when it comes to accountants, all you are is just another number.

Sad really.
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