Phenom 300 and cold we ops

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loopy
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Phenom 300 and cold we ops

Post by loopy »

I’ve heard it said that Phenoms have some issues in cold weather. Can anyone with experience on the type give some feedback on cold weather limitations or weaknesses. Particularly interested with reference to the 300 model.
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hawker driver
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Re: Phenom 300 and cold we ops

Post by hawker driver »

No issues different then other aircraft in its category have such as taking off stock which can freeze and dumping the Lav.
No APU is probably the biggest so the aircraft is cold unless you hangar it.

If you are going to be doing battery only starts and the aircraft is kept out overnight if it gets below -10 C you have to take out the battery and put it indoors. If you are going to use a GPU just plug it in and you are on your way no need to take out the battery.

If you need some performance numbers run let me know.

Are you looking at the Garmin 1000 or 3000 version?
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loopy
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Re: Phenom 300 and cold we ops

Post by loopy »

Is that -10* only for nicad’s? Is there an STC for lead acids?
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hawker driver
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Re: Phenom 300 and cold we ops

Post by hawker driver »

The -10c is for the Lead Acid. There are no Ni Cad batteries.


If ithe exposure time of -10c is less then 12 hours you are OK
If it is -10 to -15 then you have 3.5 hours before you have to take out the batteries.
At -15 to -20 then you have 2.5 hours
At -20 to -25 then you have 2 hours before they should be taken out.

Min temp for all operations is -40c
Min temp in icing conditions is -38c
Min fuel temp is -37c

I am starting to get cold just writing this.
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J31
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Re: Phenom 300 and cold we ops

Post by J31 »

Is removing the battery in cold operations mandatory? Or is it just a suggestion where as maybe putting a heater in to keep the battery warm?
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hawker driver
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Re: Phenom 300 and cold we ops

Post by hawker driver »

The battery temperature chart is in the training material but is not in the AFM as a limitation.

The consensus of the sim instructors is that while it is not an Embraer limitation, it might be a battery manufacturer limitation.
They are looking into it for me.

If someone went through the trouble of doing calculations and making a chart for the battery temp and putting it in the training material it must be important and should probably be adhered too.
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loopy
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Re: Phenom 300 and cold we ops

Post by loopy »

I haven’t heard of that kind of limitation on a lead acid battery before. -10*C is a limitation for cold soaking for nicads on different types (C560, HS25, etc,) and that’s why people switch to lead acids.

Is there an STC for a battery heater that can be plugged in like a tannis heater? Such a beasty was on some King Airs I flew in the past.
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loopy
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Re: Phenom 300 and cold we ops

Post by loopy »

hawker driver wrote: Mon Oct 22, 2018 6:20 pm The -10c is for the Lead Acid. There are no Ni Cad batteries.


If ithe exposure time of -10c is less then 12 hours you are OK
If it is -10 to -15 then you have 3.5 hours before you have to take out the batteries.
At -15 to -20 then you have 2.5 hours
At -20 to -25 then you have 2 hours before they should be taken out.

Min temp for all operations is -40c
Min temp in icing conditions is -38c
Min fuel temp is -37c

I am starting to get cold just writing this.
So is -40c apply for enroute in flight as well? Does the aircraft have engine fuel heaters that where the excess return flow also heats the fuel in the tanks in flight as well? I could see that as a limitation otherwise. If I recall the P&W 535 doesn’t require prist.
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hawker driver
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Re: Phenom 300 and cold we ops

Post by hawker driver »

loopy wrote: Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:14 pm I haven’t heard of that kind of limitation on a lead acid battery before. -10*C is a limitation for cold soaking for nicads on different types (C560, HS25, etc,) and that’s why people switch to lead acids.

Is there an STC for a battery heater that can be plugged in like a tannis heater? Such a beasty was on some King Airs I flew in the past.
I really can’t answer that regarding the tannis heater.that is something that the a salesperson might be able to answer.
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hawker driver
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Re: Phenom 300 and cold we ops

Post by hawker driver »

loopy wrote: Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:18 pm
hawker driver wrote: Mon Oct 22, 2018 6:20 pm
So is -40c apply for enroute in flight as well? Does the aircraft have engine fuel heaters that where the excess return flow also heats the fuel in the tanks in flight as well? I could see that as a limitation otherwise. If I recall the P&W 535 doesn’t require prist.

The -40c is only for Takeoffs and Landings. I regularly see temps colder than -60c SAT at FL450.

Yes there is a fuel heat exchanger that takes the hydraulic fluid and sends it through coils in the fuel tanks to warm the fuel and cool the hydraulic fluid. That is why the Phenom 300 doesn’t require prist either.
Max fuel temperature on the ground is 52c in the air it is 80c.

Overall it is a fun airplane to fly and has some cool things but, also has some things that leave you scratching your head and asking why? Such as the cockpit coffee cup holder that is too small and made of cheap plastic that breaks all the time and are useless.
My biggest gripe are the pilot seats and the need for an extra 6 or 7cm of leg room for your knees. If you are over 6’3” you might have some fit issues.
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