Plane dumps fuel over Los Angeles

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Aux1
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Plane dumps fuel over Los Angeles

Post by Aux1 » Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:57 pm

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Dry Guy
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Re: Plane dumps fuel over Los Angeles

Post by Dry Guy » Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:48 pm

Forgot to turn it off like Norwegian did last year in Orlando?
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Mick G
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Re: Plane dumps fuel over Los Angeles

Post by Mick G » Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:50 pm

I can't even begin to understand how this could be allowed to happen at such a low altitude or over a urban built-up area.....head scratcher :rolleyes:

What would happy to Johhny-Boy holding a smoke at recess..... :lol:
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valleyboy
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Re: Plane dumps fuel over Los Angeles

Post by valleyboy » Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:22 am

With an emergency declared he/she can do whatever they deem necessary to safely land. Having said that when you do something like dumbing fuel in the circuit you better be able to justify that it saved the aircraft and passengers and crew.

Regardless the airline will be responsible for and costs and the crew will be getting their ass roasted with possible demotion for the captain if the risk analyst finds he erred. Environmental impact and human impact are the things lawyers salivate over, especially in the land of the free and the home of the brave.
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Eric Janson
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Re: Plane dumps fuel over Los Angeles

Post by Eric Janson » Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:04 am

If you need to land right away then just land overweight. It takes a lot of time to dump any meaningful amount of fuel.

On my aircraft its about 5000 kg for a 1 knot change in Vref with a dump rate of 1000 kg/min.

Fuel dumping needs to be done in a controlled manner above 5000' and in a suitable location. Follow the checklist.

Jet fuel is nasty stuff - basically an acid that will cause skin burns.


Fuel dumping was part of the last re-current training I did - can't recall ever having done it before in training.
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pelmet
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Re: Plane dumps fuel over Los Angeles

Post by pelmet » Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:37 pm

Eric Janson wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:04 am
Fuel dumping was part of the last re-current training I did - can't recall ever having done it before in training.
Sounds odd. Usually it is necessary and once started, the briefing is done and then the quantity remaining magically changes to the selected amount to remain. Then just remember to finish the checklist.
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Eric Janson
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Re: Plane dumps fuel over Los Angeles

Post by Eric Janson » Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:22 pm

pelmet wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:37 pm
Eric Janson wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:04 am
Fuel dumping was part of the last re-current training I did - can't recall ever having done it before in training.
Sounds odd. Usually it is necessary and once started, the briefing is done and then the quantity remaining magically changes to the selected amount to remain. Then just remember to finish the checklist.
This was a very detailed review including all the indications on the FUEL page and the indications on the overhead panel. Very informative.

As for the LAX incident - it appears ATC was not informed that fuel dumping was taking place. Sounds like this crew could use some re-current training on fuel dumping.
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Spinwmts
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Re: Plane dumps fuel over Los Angeles

Post by Spinwmts » Thu Jan 16, 2020 11:35 am

valleyboy wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:22 am
...and the crew will be getting their ass roasted with possible demotion for the captain if the risk analyst finds he erred.
Curious if this would be a career ending oversight? I've done a few boneheaded things in my flying that I wish I could take back. Once I forgot to tighten the oil cap, then went out did some spins and came back and oil was all over the cowling. Another time I forgot carb heat on takeoff on short runway in the summer....thinking geeze that grain elevator looks awfully close. So I'm really not trying to judge anyone, especially a pilot who has so much more experience than me but this really boggles my mind.

LAX: "Do you need to head back to LAX immediately or do you need to hold and burn fuel"
DL89: "we've got a compressor stall but we've got it back under control so we're going to come back to LAX..."
LAX: "Ok so you don't need to hold to dump fuel or anything like that?"
DL89: "Negative we will be requesting runway 25R"
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Eric Janson
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Re: Plane dumps fuel over Los Angeles

Post by Eric Janson » Fri Jan 17, 2020 12:12 am

Spinwmts wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 11:35 am
valleyboy wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:22 am
...and the crew will be getting their ass roasted with possible demotion for the captain if the risk analyst finds he erred.
Curious if this would be a career ending oversight?
Depends on the Airline.

This would have cost me my job - I'm 100% certain of that. The Captain involved in the Orlando fuel dumping fiasco is no longer with my company.

In a company with a strong Union this is probably not the case - but there will probably be disciplinary action of some kind.
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GRK2
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Re: Plane dumps fuel over Los Angeles

Post by GRK2 » Fri Jan 17, 2020 3:12 pm

Career ending might be a rush to judgement without knowing what went on in the flight deck. I'm thinking there would be 4 warm bodies with a pretty good level of experience (and probably seniority). A quick look at the QAR, a download of the CVR and a conversation with the CP is usually all it takes. Delta has a very good safety policy which is a "Just Policy" so you get to tell your side, (no cover ups or BS allowed!) truthfully, then if you didn't willfully break any rules/regs/policies etc, the "Let's learn what we can from this so it doesn't happen again side of things kicks in and everyone goes home happy." No punishment, just a memo to the B777 crews that it happened and here's what we found and how it's being addressed.

I am quite familiar with the B777 300ER and at MTOW with an engine throttled back, all the way to idle if required (compressor stall memory actions completed, it's not an automatic engine shutdown unless you can't get the stalling to stop) it should climb quite well. Even in warmer climates. A recent recurrent on the type had a nose wheel fail at V1 with tire damage to the right engine (needed to shut it down via the usual memory actions and QRH) Almost ALL crews elected to return without dumping (Overweight landing checklist allows it) as the engine damage is unknown at this point in the exercise. In this case there are 4 pilots in the sim and if the operating crew elects to dump fuel, the other crew is often asked to go ahead and start the process via a paper QRH. (It takes about 5 seconds to set it up, confirm that dumping is a go and start without the QRH by the way.)

It's a Human Factors/CRM exercise with no jeopardy and meant to be a teaching moment. Great experience and good practise. I hope those Delta boys n girls keep their positions and get some well earned rest.
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Gino Under
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Re: Plane dumps fuel over Los Angeles

Post by Gino Under » Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:29 am

Without rushing to judgement it can easily be said that an engine failure on, during, or after takeoff is a well rehearsed event. This crew was not taken by shock and surprise and not without a plan following such an event. Rushing into a checklist, TEM, Poor CRM or ineffective CRM is a likely factor here. They might even be seen to have rushed through this emergency from top to bottom. We’ll see.
If the crew had that much fuel with a functioning autopilot, an operational FMS, an engaged NAV mode and had previously practiced OEI non-normal procedures it seems plausible to me a 5 to 10000 ft hold offshore to git their Sh*t together would have been too easy.
From my perspective it’s way too easy to criticize in light of missing info to pass judgement.
But you do have to wonder, dumping fuel at 2500 feet over a residential area..

The bottom line for emergencies is whatever it takes and all bets are off.
Captain Hazard will have to ‘splain’ why he/she did what he/she did keeping in mind they landed safely with no lives lost.

Without a punitive reaction, safety lessons will be learned.

Gino Under
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