Jazz lands on lights in YAM?

#37 · Post by **#37** » Fri Mar 13, 2015 3:51 pm

Hello Ewan, Cat Driver, Ilya and the gang have it all sewn up. Take a two week holiday.

Illya Kuryakin · Post by **Illya Kuryakin** » Fri Mar 13, 2015 4:31 pm

#37 wrote:Hello Ewan, Cat Driver, Ilya and the gang have it all sewn up. Take a two week holiday.

On the surface that sounds condescending......on the surface. Prove us wrong #37. The crew lost SA and landed without visual reference to the ground.
Illya

PS
When are we going to crack down on this crap? This is not a clapped out Navajo from Armpit Airways. This was a modern transport category aircraft, flown by two trained pilots for our flag carrier. This should not happen. I don't buy "accidents happen", and neither should anybody. #37 seems to think a missed approach wasn't called for? That's the ONLY tune Cat and I are singing. Are we wrong? Were there extenuating circumstances? Perhaps they were tired? Maybe their paycheques are too small?

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Fri Mar 13, 2015 4:44 pm

On the surface that sounds condescending......on the surface. Prove us wrong #37. The crew lost SA and landed without visual reference to the ground.
Illya

That was a " Landing " ?

esp803 · Post by **esp803** » Fri Mar 13, 2015 5:19 pm

Illya Kuryakin wrote: This is not a clapped out Navajo from Armpit Airways.

Should that really matter in this case? I'd still fire my P2F pilots at Chisel air for doing this.

I do agree with the rest though.

E

#37 · Post by **#37** » Sat Mar 14, 2015 3:12 pm

Prove you wrong, nope. Been around long enough to know a few dudes that have landed off the landing Surface. When the facts came out... guess what? Everyone went "ohhhh crap!, I can see how that went down!"

Perhaps that is the case, perhaps not, but with the attitudes some of the Avcanada gurus have we will never know, it's already black and white... hopefully Ewan here understands what a grey world aviation can be. Maybe then we will learn something.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Sat Mar 14, 2015 4:32 pm

I'm always interested in learning something new 37.

What unavoidable circumstances could have caused that crew to land short of the runway after they lost sight of it.

Or should we wait acouple of years for Ewan to figure it out for us?

#37 · Post by **#37** » Sat Mar 14, 2015 8:01 pm

How would I know?

I wasn't there.

Didn't do that approach.

Illya Kuryakin · Post by **Illya Kuryakin** » Sat Mar 14, 2015 9:22 pm

One thing that has always pissed me off about this industry is pilot's who can't just say "they pooched it..." Pilots always seem to need to be told, "that could have happened to anyone......these guys were victims of circumstances....." Or "let's wait for the report to come out....." A report from even more people who weren't there. Pilots tend to deflect blame, blame anything but themselves or their brothers...
Illya

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Sat Mar 14, 2015 9:41 pm

What I can't figure out is why an airline crew fly's an airplane into the ground rather than follow the missed approach proceedure as published.

Unless the TSB guy in this one was miss quoted this accident was caused by failing to follow the rules.

If the TSB guy was miss quoted someone would have said so by now.

#37 · Post by **#37** » Sun Mar 15, 2015 5:49 am

Illya, you will note that "they pooched it" is not an option I've ruled out.

The problem for you Illya, it's usually the least self aware of their own poor skills that are the first to want to go straight to hanging the pilots. That's why guys like Cat Driver etc are so funny (in a sad way on these forums. It's a pattern of behavior that makes alarm bells go off.
Carry on,

Pop n Fresh · Post by **Pop n Fresh** » Sun Mar 15, 2015 6:14 am

Cat Driver wrote:
On the surface that sounds condescending......on the surface. Prove us wrong #37. The crew lost SA and landed without visual reference to the ground.
Illya
That was a " Landing " ?

I think they even ended up on a prepared runway soon after hitting the lights. So... definitely a landing.
Though possibly a "crash" landing.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Sun Mar 15, 2015 6:47 am

That's why guys like Cat Driver etc are so funny (in a sad way on these forums. It's a pattern of behavior that makes alarm bells go off.
Carry on,

When you make a statement that is that personal 37 on this forum I believe I have the right under forum rules to ask you what alarm bells you hear regarding my competency and history as a pilot.

Quite frankly it is posters like you sniping from the comfort of anonymity that damages these forums.

So please explain what you mean by alarm bells.

Illya Kuryakin · Post by **Illya Kuryakin** » Sun Mar 15, 2015 9:22 am

#37 wrote: That's why guys like Cat Driver etc are so funny (in a sad way on these forums. It's a pattern of behavior that makes alarm bells go off.
Carry on,

You crack me up! Alarm bells are set off because people like Cat and myself have the nerve to criticize an airline crew for sticking one in early, blind, rather than open the taps and go try again? I guarantee Cat, and myself have done as many, or more approaches than any pilot on this forum. All have ended with landings ON the strip, or successful missed approaches. Does this "make alarm bells go off" in your head?
Illya

Johnny#5 · Post by **Johnny#5** » Sun Mar 15, 2015 1:01 pm

55+ · Post by **55+** » Sun Mar 15, 2015 8:02 pm

Illya Kuryakin wrote:
#37 wrote: That's why guys like Cat Driver etc are so funny (in a sad way on these forums. It's a pattern of behavior that makes alarm bells go off.
Carry on,
You crack me up! Alarm bells are set off because people like Cat and myself have the nerve to criticize an airline crew for sticking one in early, blind, rather than open the taps and go try again? I guarantee Cat, and myself have done as many, or more approaches than any pilot on this forum. All have ended with landings ON the strip, or successful missed approaches. Does this "make alarm bells go off" in your head?
Illya

Airline pilots, hmmmm....... reminds me a few years back with departures YFC RWY 15 and the issues we had with airlines who couldn't stay outside Camp Gagetown. Got to be quite a problem, even joked of having a lighted sign at departure end of runway indicating Turn right or left now!

pelmet · Post by **pelmet** » Tue Mar 24, 2015 7:45 pm

Looks like Jazz hit some more lights in Calgary...

2015-03-20

The Jazz Aviation LP (dba Air Canada Express) Bombardier DHC-8-402, C-GGOF, was operating
as flight JZA8374 from Ft. McMurray, AB (CYMM) to Calgary, AB (CYYC). During touchdown on
Runway 17R, JZA8374 struck the right hand runway edge lights in the vicinity of Taxiway Juliette.
Maintenance found minor damage to the right hand landing gear structure and right hand nacelle.

Oscar · Post by **Oscar** » Thu May 21, 2015 9:01 am

deleted -

old_man · Post by **old_man** » Mon Mar 20, 2017 7:19 pm

I don't know is this was posted already but the report is out. I found it interesting.

http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-repor ... 5o0015.asp

pdw · Post by **pdw** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:23 am

Yes, the report is good. The changing speeds/settings in-and around / approaching the accident point are well documented in this narrative. This assists readers ( ie: those studying for pertinent matching wx history for those moments .. like some serious-changing/intermittent-blinding components in play ) to envision what maintaining thrust/slope/airspeed might have been like in the situation faced at the time of this accident.

Canoehead · Post by **Canoehead** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 9:14 am

pdw wrote:Yes, the report is good.

Sorry but the report is not even close to good.

Besides the fact that the report focuses way too much on an unstable approach (I'm not marginalizing the importance of the subject), rather than on the loss of visual components, it is missing a few important "need-to-know" items. What were the condition levers set to for example...

There are grammatical errors, and even the layout and the FONT used is so outdated it hurts. (Yeah personal preference but come on... it's 2017).

The report is written for laymen. Private pilots perhaps. No offence to those groups, but for the people involved with flying these machines in these conditions, I think this report is almost laughable. The TSB seems more concerned with relations with the public, news outlets and the official languages than they are with giving us the nuts and bolts. They've gone from once including CVR/ATC transcripts to little snippets of transcripts to nothing at all (I know the CVR wasn't involved here but just pointing it out). Where is the radar plot? Where is the FDR readout? All pertinent in my mind, and especially after 2+ years!

That report should have been released within months as it was published.
I've read the internal company report (that came out long ago). It's better than this report quite honestly.

I know this is budget challenged Canada, and not the US, but have a look at any NTSB report and see what a "good" report looks like.

Jazz lands on lights in YAM?

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