Gear up landing possible prevention
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore
Gear up landing possible prevention
Training flights seem to be a high risk area. Perhaps the pilots can request to the tower to revert back to the "check gear down" reminder we used to get with the landing clearance for training flights.
Any thoughts on that idea?
Occurrence Summary:
A Beech 200 (registration C-GBBS, operated by AirExpress Ontario Inc.) was being flown in the
Oshawa area for flight training purposes. During a flapless landing on runway 12 at Oshawa
(CYOO), the flight crew forgot to lower the landing gear. The propellers and a portion of the
underside fuselage touched the runway surface before an overshoot was performed. The aircraft
landed safely during a subsequent landing. There were no injuries to the two occupants.
Any thoughts on that idea?
Occurrence Summary:
A Beech 200 (registration C-GBBS, operated by AirExpress Ontario Inc.) was being flown in the
Oshawa area for flight training purposes. During a flapless landing on runway 12 at Oshawa
(CYOO), the flight crew forgot to lower the landing gear. The propellers and a portion of the
underside fuselage touched the runway surface before an overshoot was performed. The aircraft
landed safely during a subsequent landing. There were no injuries to the two occupants.
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Re: Gear up landing possible prevention
How do you prevent pilots from going around after a gear up runway contact with the airplane and the props?
The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
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Re: Gear up landing possible prevention
Too many liability issues there Pelmet. That's why they don't do it anymore.
To take the airplane back in the air after the props contact the runway? Don't get me started on that one.
A flapless landing is an abnormal situation (but, not all that abnormal) .....never mind. There's obviously no cure.
Illya
To take the airplane back in the air after the props contact the runway? Don't get me started on that one.
A flapless landing is an abnormal situation (but, not all that abnormal) .....never mind. There's obviously no cure.
Illya
Wish I didn't know now, what I didn't know then.
Re: Gear up landing possible prevention
They still make the gear down call in CYYR.
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Re: Gear up landing possible prevention
I'm sure it's not in their MANOPS.ant_321 wrote:They still make the gear down call in CYYR.
Illya
Wish I didn't know now, what I didn't know then.
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Re: Gear up landing possible prevention
Military airports make that call.They still make the gear down call in CYYR.
You'd think that if you made it far enough in your career to be in command of a king air you'd know better not to take an airplane back in the air after the props and fuselage touch the ground.
Last thing we need is another airplane breaking up in the air this week.
GOOD JOB TARD!!!!
Re: Gear up landing possible prevention
Really?. Finley wrote:GOOD JOB TARD!!!!
The crew screwed up, twice. Gear didn't go down, and after they touched the ground they went around. Simple as that, they made two very dumb mistakes. Everybody makes mistakes, well everybody except most of the people on this forum. I've laid a bike over because I thought I saw a car moving into the intersection on a dirt road (it was parked), Hit the front brake a little hard... I made a mistake, my bike got damaged. It was my fault, I screwed up, I learned. Illya don't take this as me condoning it as okay, it was a mistake and those (mistakes) happen to most of us.
E
Re: Gear up landing possible prevention
You would think so but I watched a military king air ding bot props doing a fear up landing then execute a go around.. Finley wrote:Military airports make that call.They still make the gear down call in CYYR.
You'd think that if you made it far enough in your career to be in command of a king air you'd know better not to take an airplane back in the air after the props and fuselage touch the ground.
Last thing we need is another airplane breaking up in the air this week.
GOOD JOB TARD!!!!
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Re: Gear up landing possible prevention
Most pilots would go around after hitting the runway with the gear up?
Really?
Really?
The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
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Re: Gear up landing possible prevention
esp803 wrote:Really?. Finley wrote:GOOD JOB TARD!!!!
The crew screwed up, twice. Gear didn't go down, and after they touched the ground they went around. Simple as that, they made two very dumb mistakes. Everybody makes mistakes, well everybody except most of the people on this forum. I've laid a bike over because I thought I saw a car moving into the intersection on a dirt road (it was parked), Hit the front brake a little hard... I made a mistake, my bike got damaged. It was my fault, I screwed up, I learned. Illya don't take this as me condoning it as okay, it was a mistake and those (mistakes) happen to most of us.
E
So was this a valuable leaning experience?
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Re: Gear up landing possible prevention
Forgetting to put the gear down is one issue, especially on a training flight.
Going around after airplane and prop contact with the ground is something else, had the airplane crashed in a built up area and killed people I would suggest you are now into criminal negligence.
Going around after airplane and prop contact with the ground is something else, had the airplane crashed in a built up area and killed people I would suggest you are now into criminal negligence.
Last edited by Chuck Ellsworth on Thu Apr 16, 2015 8:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
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Re: Gear up landing possible prevention
Just a matter of discretion and individual circumstance.. . wrote:Most pilots would go around after hitting the runway with the gear up?
Really?
Yes, yes they would.
Q tipping two props and maybe a little scratched paint beats a full blown pancake.
I've seen it done before, small single engine, just ended up being new prop blades, engine was checked out, all to spec, didn't even scratch the paint. Option B wouldn't have been quite a pretty or as cheap.
Of course, best bet is to do your flows, follow up with the checklist and avoid the whole mess.
Re: Gear up landing possible prevention
I'm no psychologist, but before this guy is condemned, I would imagine it could possibly be an automatic "OH FUKK!" reaction to jam the powers forward. In a brief moment you may know if the airplane is going to fly or if it's going to shake itself apart.
It could work, as in this case and another PC-12 in YXL years ago, or it could end badly. Or really badly.
It could work, as in this case and another PC-12 in YXL years ago, or it could end badly. Or really badly.
Re: Gear up landing possible prevention
It's a transport approved procedure, why not?. . wrote:Most pilots would go around after hitting the runway with the gear up?
Really?
http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-repor ... 0h0007.asp
Re: Gear up landing possible prevention
I have a crazy idea: teach students to check the gear FROM DAY 1. It may seem silly to teach this in a fixed gear trainer, but remember primacy? It gets them thinking about it and it's ingrained when they progress to a more complex aircraft.
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Re: Gear up landing possible prevention
After "Q tipping the props and maybe a little scratched paint....", how do you know your aircraft isn't mortally wounded? You're qualified to make that call? To continue back into the air, over houses, schools and who knows what? I'm not. Neither are you.SuperchargedRS wrote:Just a matter of discretion and individual circumstance.. . wrote:Most pilots would go around after hitting the runway with the gear up?
Really?
Yes, yes they would.
Q tipping two props and maybe a little scratched paint beats a full blown pancake.
I've seen it done before, small single engine, just ended up being new prop blades, engine was checked out, all to spec, didn't even scratch the paint. Option B wouldn't have been quite a pretty or as cheap.
.
Give your head a shake.
Illya
Wish I didn't know now, what I didn't know then.
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Re: Gear up landing possible prevention
Automatically blow the gear down on a nitrogen charge when the rad. alt hits 50 feet with the gear still up. Heck, make it twenty if you're really that into buzz jobs.
If I'd known I was going to live this long, I'd have taken better care of myself
Re: Gear up landing possible prevention
Although it's not something that prevents gear up landings, the phrase "gear down to go down" was hammered in my head since day one. It helps. Then the MP3's. Mixture, props, 3 green, one in the mirror. Then you do it again.
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Re: Gear up landing possible prevention
I'll chime in with the opinion of a pilot who has done both within 15 or so hours of each other.
First time.. scraped the props and some antennas... did the go around.. and was very concerned about the vibration and lack of power.
Second time... decided to keep it on the ground.. plane was a write-off.
Better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air than the other way around.... insurance pays for the aircraft.. and the likelihood of a fatal accident is going to be more likely taking a very unairworthy aircraft back into the pattern vs riding out an otherwise controlled and normal landing. The only time I might consider going around would be in a high performance aircraft with a canopy where I could get trapped if it overturned...
For prevention... wouldn't have helped the guy the second time... uncontrolled airport. Put the gear down... I visually check three times even on fixed gear planes. And part of your emergency checks should be to also ensure normal items are completed.
First time.. scraped the props and some antennas... did the go around.. and was very concerned about the vibration and lack of power.
Second time... decided to keep it on the ground.. plane was a write-off.
Better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air than the other way around.... insurance pays for the aircraft.. and the likelihood of a fatal accident is going to be more likely taking a very unairworthy aircraft back into the pattern vs riding out an otherwise controlled and normal landing. The only time I might consider going around would be in a high performance aircraft with a canopy where I could get trapped if it overturned...
For prevention... wouldn't have helped the guy the second time... uncontrolled airport. Put the gear down... I visually check three times even on fixed gear planes. And part of your emergency checks should be to also ensure normal items are completed.
Geez did I say that....? Or just think it....?
Re: Gear up landing possible prevention
I'm not sure about "valuable", but I suspect the crew learned something from it. I worked for an operation once, they had a pilot who screwed up a docking by putting the mixture in too quickly, starting the engine again, and cutting up the next airplanes tail. They didn't fire him, because mistakes happen and in their opinion it was better to have the guy who had done it and won't ever do it again, then to have the new guy who might do it. I know someone on here is going to bring up the situation where one pilot has multiple gear up landings... Well if I was doing the hiring they'd be in the cylindrical file after 2. I don't think I would mind hiring someone who has done it once (provided they accepted responsibility for what happened, as it was their fault), for the same reason little timmy never got fired.. Finley wrote:So was this a valuable leaning experience?
E