Wasaya caravan missing

Topics related to accidents, incidents & over due aircraft should be placed in this forum.

Moderators: lilfssister, North Shore, ahramin, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako

Post Reply
FlyingMonkey
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 65
Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2014 2:13 pm

Re: Wasaya caravan missing

Post by FlyingMonkey »

You should all be ashamed of yourselves for judging and lecturing a fallen pilot's decisions when none of you were there and truly know what happened. There are so many arm chair pilots on this site who swiftly jump on any opportunity to try and show their "superior" intelligence and pilot decision making when something tragic like this happens. It's gutless and beyond disrespectful.
---------- ADS -----------
  

NickyNick
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 127
Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2015 3:01 pm
Location: THE PAS

Re: Wasaya caravan missing

Post by NickyNick »

Wait for the TSB report is the best thing to do. First reports on here were the aircraft landed on a lake intact / pilot ok and then we get a photo of the aircraft crippled and in the woods and pilot not ok. People just looking for attention by making false reports such as those.
FlyingMonkey wrote:You should all be ashamed of yourselves for judging and lecturing a fallen pilot's decisions when none of you were there and truly know what happened. There are so many arm chair pilots on this site who swiftly jump on any opportunity to try and show their "superior" intelligence and pilot decision making when something tragic like this happens. It's gutless and beyond disrespectful.
---------- ADS -----------
  

D_Thissen
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 55
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 7:48 am

Re: Wasaya caravan missing

Post by D_Thissen »

nottellin wrote: Unbelievable! The guy just blatantly says its not the time to give our 20/20 hindsight "what I would have done" and you acknowledge that, then go on to tell him what you would have done.

Maybe he did have the thing fire walled, nobody knows anything at this point. Implying that this poor young man didnt use all of his available tools or his IFR was rusty or its his own fault for getting himself into this situation is disgusting and DISRESPECTFUL, while we sit in our warm houses or workplaces, alive.

Show some respect.
This kind of stuff has to stop. We have no idea what happened. For all we know, he could have ingested a bird and that caused an engine failure. Or there could have been contamination in the fuel. Its easy to speculate and fill in the blanks to come up with a theory.
Now, step back for a minute, put your self in his wife's shoes. They just got married in July, both are 29 years old. Now she has to lay her best friend and husband to rest. Show some compassion people. It could have happened to anyone one of us!

There is a place that if you would like to make a donation to Nick's family, it would be greatly appreciated.
Nick's wife Kaila thoughts are "Instead of sending flowers that can only last so long, please put the money you would towards this....Nick would be so proud...Love You my Nicky."
https://www.gofundme.com/vyfqqnw8

RIP Nick :(
---------- ADS -----------
  

whistlerboy02
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 92
Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2009 7:20 pm

Re: Wasaya caravan missing

Post by whistlerboy02 »

If I am ever in an accident you guys have my permission to speculate and post about all possible causes and scenarios you want. I find these threads helpful and we don't talk about this stuff in real life as much as we should. We are all drawn to threads like this by a desire to learn, and prevent the same thing happening to us.
I've known some of the pilots and companies involved in these accident threads and its easy to think posters are judging the dead or the companies involved....but its not.
Currently we have a 6 page thread on winter ops, Northern ops, icing, special vfr, caravans, weight and balance, ect.... its a damn shame the events that have brought us to this page, but I don't agree with the posters asking for a "cone of silence" out of respect for the families, or asking to wait a year until the report comes out.
The Bearskin Metro speculation thread was 8 pages long and had 23,000 views, First Air has 73,000 views and 488 posts. I didn't agree with all the posts, but I certainly don't think reading them, contributing to the discussion was time wasted or does anyone a disservice.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Old fella
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2020
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 7:04 am

Re: Wasaya caravan missing

Post by Old fella »

Agree WB02, I am sure if commentary crosses a certain line the moderators would lock the thread(as they have done in the past) and/or pass out a warning to the offenders. I have no knowledge of Caravan operations and nil flying experience in that neck of the country, my 8000+ hrs is mostly twin turbine of the BE kind so tis obvious I won't comment on this accident. I am sure operators of all companies associated with aviation(as well as their mgt levels) know of this site and take a peep, perhaps some are " common taters", who knows. I bet if posts are slanderous and of gross mis-representation of the known facts, it would be pointed out by said operators requesting some redress which is fair in my view. Just my opinion.
---------- ADS -----------
  

timel
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1209
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2010 12:50 am

Re: Wasaya caravan missing

Post by timel »

whistlerboy02 wrote: Currently we have a 6 page thread on winter ops, Northern ops, icing, special vfr, caravans, weight and balance, ect.... its a damn shame the events that have brought us to this page, but I don't agree with the posters asking for a "cone of silence" out of respect for the families, or asking to wait a year until the report comes out.
The Bearskin Metro speculation thread was 8 pages long and had 23,000 views, First Air has 73,000 views and 488 posts. I didn't agree with all the posts, but I certainly don't think reading them, contributing to the discussion was time wasted or does anyone a disservice.

I am happy with all the information I got directly and indirectly on this forum, the conversations do bring out interesting insights and experiences from other pilots, personally it helped me a lot at some point, in certain companies there are less and less pilots with significant experience to coach the new ones, this forum is probably the last place where you can find the help and question yourself appropriately when you need it.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Redneck_pilot86
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1271
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 12:47 pm
Location: between 60 and 70

Re: Wasaya caravan missing

Post by Redneck_pilot86 »

From this thread, and the Kasper one, it has come out that a lot of pilots think VFR at less than 300 feet is acceptable. This is not true. If we can open just one persons eyes before they end up dead, these threads are worth it.
---------- ADS -----------
  
The only three things a wingman should ever say: 1. "Two's up" 2. "You're on fire" 3. "I'll take the fat one"

LousyFisherman
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 578
Joined: Sat May 10, 2008 8:32 am
Location: CFX2
Contact:

Re: Wasaya caravan missing

Post by LousyFisherman »

I am an amateur.
I have flown the area in summer and fall, though I do not know it well from the air.
I make no judgements about the pilot but the weather looks like "Go to the bar time"

Flying from Gimli to Red Lake, on the east side of Lake Winnipeg it was OVC 1000, Red Lake reporting 1500. 50 km further on the cloud has dropped to 800 and it appears to be lower ahead.

In my mind 800 feet - 500ft to stay legal from the cloud,, - 200 feet for some tower not on the chart = 100 feet of leeway. And what if the cloud drops both in front and behind? I'm not that good a pilot. I turned around (went to Berens instead) and after we returned to base I was allowed to take the plane without an instructor because "I showed good judgement".

No matter what the forecast says the actual weather can be very different.

IMHO
LF
---------- ADS -----------
  
Women and planes have alot in common
Both are expensive, loud, and noisy.
However, when handled properly both respond well and provide great pleasure

fish4life
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1749
Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2010 6:32 am

Re: Wasaya caravan missing

Post by fish4life »

Let me correct something for you Lousy Fisherman, you ARE A GOOD PILOT because you decided to turn around and not push weather. No matter how much experience you have turning around when the ceiling goes down is a good decision.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Lloyd YWG FIC
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 37
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2011 5:10 pm

Re: Wasaya caravan missing

Post by Lloyd YWG FIC »

Over the years I've often included a cautionary warning when briefing pilots flying in lower stratusy conditions. Quite often there is some freezing precip hanging just below the cloud deck that is not reported on any METAR or in the forecasts. The only reason I've learned of this stuff is because pilots have told me about it. With low ceilings this becomes even more of a problem.

Lloyd (retired now so don't bother calling my manager NavCanada monitor)
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Bede
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3154
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 5:52 am

Re: Wasaya caravan missing

Post by Bede »

Lloyd wrote: Lloyd (retired now so don't bother calling my manager NavCanada monitor)
:smt040 :smt040 :smt040
---------- ADS -----------
  
Last edited by Bede on Fri Dec 18, 2015 7:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
schnitzel2k3
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 878
Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 11:17 pm

Re: Wasaya caravan missing

Post by schnitzel2k3 »

I've seen lots of times in western Saskatchewan, Cessna 206s and 172s coming out of Fort Mac making it into IFR only airports VFR because they remained 'out of cloud'. Meanwhile all the honest pilots are in the missed.

Common northern practice, and one I never partook in, but got reamed out for, because 'you know, there was a 172 that made it in there 5 minutes after you. Why couldn't you make it in?'

That being said, this situation, based on the active weather that day, likely iced up the airframe beyond its abilities. Whether or not he was IFR is irrelevant. We've all been there, that one day you are a little more tired, a little more distracted or maybe a little more motivated to get the job done. Most make it out alive with a story and that invaluable experience.

Some, like Capt. Little, do not.

Ontario has been particularly nasty for freezing rain, drizzle and fog this year, and some companies and pilots choose to not respect the incredibly large archilles heel of the Cessna 208.

Stay safe guys and gals.

S.
---------- ADS -----------
  

AWOS
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 83
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2014 7:38 am

Re: Wasaya caravan missing

Post by AWOS »

Lloyd YWG FIC wrote:Over the years I've often included a cautionary warning when briefing pilots flying in lower stratusy conditions. Quite often there is some freezing precip hanging just below the cloud deck that is not reported on any METAR or in the forecasts. The only reason I've learned of this stuff is because pilots have told me about it. With low ceilings this becomes even more of a problem.

Lloyd (retired now so don't bother calling my manager NavCanada monitor)

Weather briefings just aren't the same without you, Lloyd.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Walter
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 18
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 2:00 pm
Location: out of the bush

Re: Wasaya caravan missing

Post by Walter »

In a perfect world someone would acknowledge the root cause of this and most of the other wasaya accidents and then a governing body would actually do something about it. But that's in a perfect world.
My condolences to the family.
---------- ADS -----------
  

TheFrankestFrank
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2012 12:54 pm

Re: Wasaya caravan missing

Post by TheFrankestFrank »

Walter that’s a pretty inflammatory statement seems to me you’re implying you know there’s an unaddressed underlying issue. Have you ever submitted an SMS hazard report to bring attention to the concern? If not in this day and age you’re part of the problem.

I think one of the most risky things companies like Wasaya do is run its operation across three different CAR’s categories, 703, 704 and 705 using the lowest legal standard for aircraft dispatch, that being a type “C” pilot self dispatch system.

Show me a company that operates anything using the minimum standards and requirements and I’ll show you a company that has a high tolerance for risk.

The law says under a Type “C” dispatch system operational control is delegated to the pilot-in-command by the operations manager, however it also says the operations manager retains responsibility for the day-to-day conduct of flight operations.

In many cases this practice translates into the pilot taking on the entire weight of all decisions relating to a flight or series of flights. Right or wrong many pilots will take the position that this is the way it should be, pilot has final say. What they often miss is somebody else is there to assist them; they’re not on an island. The system is suppose to provide somebody who is responsible to provide operational over-sight, somebody who’s responsibility it is to step in and provide guidance when safety of flight is questionable. Operation managers typically have a host of other operational personnel at their disposal that have relative information. Chief pilot(s) that have current knowledge of the pilot’s time on type, schedule and strengths and weaknesses. Flight followers that track weather, runway and NOTAM information and at the local level a Base Manager who’s job it is to manage and maintain the safety of all employees working at the base. Base Managers play a role in maintaining the big picture at the base, who’s looking a little tired, who’s looking a little stressed, who’s rushing and maybe taking shortcuts. The Base Manager is the often the operations manager or chief pilots eyes and ears.

In operations like Wasaya the day-to-day conduct of flight operations, the conduct that the operations manager is responsible for often becomes the financial aspects of the flight, it doesn’t come from a safety of flight perspective. It becomes more about where your going and why did you do it that way, statements like “ it was more efficient to go to A, B and C instead of B, A and C” or “We would have made more money if you did this instead of that”. The lines get blurred and the operation manager becomes the defacto general manager, straying from his TC job description, financial matters take precedence instead of his safety of flight responsibilities.

The long and the short of it, type “C” dispatch has no place in operations the size and scope of operations like Wasaya. The organization and business decision model is all wrong and flawed. The minimum standard should be a type “B” co-authority dispatch to ensure the pilot has appropriate operational and dispatch support. I’m not saying the pilot should not have the final go-no-go decision that should and must be left with the PIC. I’m saying the pilot should not be placed on an island and have all the responsibility placed on him/her when there is a host of other company personnel that have a responsibility to ensure the company operates with safety at the forefront of the collective minds.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
PilotDAR
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3149
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:46 pm
Location: Near CNJ4 Orillia, Ontario

Re: Wasaya caravan missing

Post by PilotDAR »

I like what Whistlerboy02 has written.

There's a balance, and comradery and decency would suggest that finding the middle would be nice. Perhaps some people have a good thought and are reluctant to post. Perhaps other people have an axe to grind, and are too eager to post. Somewhere in the middle is the better. There is no best in these circumstances.

Waiting for the report delays thinking and possible learning resulting from the event - particularly seasonal thinking and refresher. If a post here makes a new pilot think twice next week, about continuing into the icing, or double checking the fuel, or whatever, and lives, this thread might have just saved a life. If thoughts are suppressed, that new pilot might never read that future report, or have an event in the mean time. In that case, something that we could have done, failed by omission to support that pilot. On the other hand, yes, Nick's new wife could be reading, and be needlessly saddened - we think of her too as a part of our extended pilot family, and think before we write....
---------- ADS -----------
  

Gorgons
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 172
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 5:47 pm

Re: Wasaya caravan missing

Post by Gorgons »

Previous comment self-deleted, in retrospect it added nothing worthwhile to the conversation.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
single_swine_herder
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 625
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 9:35 pm

Re: Wasaya caravan missing

Post by single_swine_herder »

FrankestFrank .... what a superb post.
---------- ADS -----------
  

springlocked
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 71
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 11:16 am

Re: Wasaya caravan missing

Post by springlocked »

There was no flight plan on flightaware, so it was likely they were VFR. This is confirmed in the CADOR:
Now that is a false statement. It's all uncontrolled airspace so no IFR flight plan with ATC required.
The long and the short of it, type “C” dispatch has no place in operations the size and scope
I hear an echo -- I'll even restate my opinion - Pilot self dispatch has no business in any IFR commercial operations. Smaller companies can sub-contract and larger ones have their own but self dispatch should be eliminated. The nay sayers will call fowl but costs are a non issue in the grand scale of things.
---------- ADS -----------
  

pelmet
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4544
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 2:48 pm

Re: Wasaya caravan missing

Post by pelmet »

How high is Tarp Hill compared to the surrounding terrain?
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Jean-Pierre
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 350
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2009 4:56 pm

Re: Wasaya caravan missing

Post by Jean-Pierre »

pelmet wrote:How high is Tarp Hill compared to the surrounding terrain?
About 280' above Pickle Lake elevation.

From what I've been told the claim that Wasaya has given up its old way applies to the sched side only. They do their RNAV to minimum and if they miss oh well. Try again tomorrow. Freight side maybe might be the same as it has always been. Maybe there is some extra pressure due to lack of aircraft and the busy time of year. Plus weather was bad for awhile. They need to update the fleet but financial just isn't there. Maybe no one tell him you go flying but pilot aren't blind to their company situation. There are human factor at play in every flight.
---------- ADS -----------
  

TheFrankestFrank
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2012 12:54 pm

Re: Wasaya caravan missing

Post by TheFrankestFrank »

.
---------- ADS -----------
  

trey kule
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4590
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 7:09 pm

Re: Wasaya caravan missing

Post by trey kule »

FrankestFrank .... what a superb post.

Plus 1. Superb!


I notice you have only posted 17 times in the last few years. I think maybe we could all benefit from more posts from you.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Everyone is a genius in hindsight

Illya Kuryakin
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1311
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 11:14 pm
Location: The Gulag Archipelago

Re: Wasaya caravan missing

Post by Illya Kuryakin »

Frank...good post.
I've never submitted an SMS report. Which in a way speaks volumes for the operation I'm with. Never seen the need. Personally.
While I agree with "I'm not saying final go/no go decision should not rest with the PIC...." or words to that affect, I do believe there is enough influence "in the wings" to sway that decision in a direction it should not go? Thoughts?
What Trey says....post more often.
Illya
---------- ADS -----------
  
Wish I didn't know now, what I didn't know then.

sstaurus
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 607
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2007 4:32 pm

Re: Wasaya caravan missing

Post by sstaurus »

Couldn't agree with Frank more. At my company, I hate having to worry about being questioned after the fact about other aspects that have nothing to do with safety. More support from the company would be greatly welcomed... As well as fully licensed dispatchers.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Post Reply

Return to “Accidents, Incidents & Overdue Aircraft”