DanWEC wrote:Bad wx, likely icing too. I won't speculate since information is limited and it's generally in poor taste to do so, but I wonder how they ended up 2km north of the field, coming from the west for (likely) 07?
Just tragic for the family. RIP.
TSB says 2km north, however the news reports are saying it was near Chemin Richard, about 3km SW of the threshold of runway 08.
Anything north of the airport appears to be either water or open land; no houses as shown in the photo backgrounds.
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Interesting how the TSB investigation is headed and done by their Atlantic Regional office, and not from the Quebec regional office. A Quebec-based crew, to and from two Quebec airports, all French speaking including all 7 victims. I get it that Iles-de-la-Madeleine are physically close to the Atlantic Region, but there must be a reason why the Quebec Region was not given the nod on this high profile accident.
armchair wrote:all French speaking including all 7 victims.
Are you in insinuating that there was a linguistical issue? Complications perhaps arising from the crew flying an American reg aircraft with a potentially bilingual crew? (And perhaps even passengers?).
armchair wrote:Interesting how the TSB investigation is headed and done by their Atlantic Regional office, and not from the Quebec regional office. A Quebec-based crew, to and from two Quebec airports, all French speaking including all 7 victims. I get it that Iles-de-la-Madeleine are physically close to the Atlantic Region, but there must be a reason why the Quebec Region was not given the nod on this high profile accident.
The reason is the accident occurred in the Atlantic Region.
schnitzel2k3 wrote:I'm in agreement with the altimeter theory.
Very easy to listen to an ATIS, and accidentally set 29.93 vs. 28.93 and end up very low on an approach, which seems to be the case (striking the hill). When I saw the METAR this afternoon, that was the first item that caught my eye. People were talking about Icing this and low clouds that...but the MU2 is solid (yes its a squirrelly bird).
I have no idea what equipment was onboard or what an MU2 comes with standard, but it's too bad it wasn't able to help them out in this scenario.
I guess first things first, pull the altimeter and check the setting.
Sigh. Shame.
S.
Very possible with the altimeter set wrong. However with no ATIS in CYGR (Iles-de-la-Madeleine) you talk to Madeleine Radio or Mont-joli on the MF. In this case they would have been working Monction center and then handed off to Madeleine Radio. Both ATC and Madeleine Radio would have given the altimeter twice as per NavCan procedures with the low setting.
"Rumours" have it some claim to have seen it fly UNDER power wires...Either he was loaded with ice or/and lost an engine...clearly a controlled crash...Keep in mind this design has no ailerons but spoilers...so if you use them instead exclusively of rudder for single engine control, guaranteed crash...(loss of lift)
Also, he was perfectly legal as long as it was a non revenue flight. This outfit has a good reputation, so bad maintenance is out of question.
Examination of the propellers will tell the cause of the crash.
Some MU-2 icing emergencies https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wbm8xzL ... e=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lAu-Hp ... e=youtu.be
I'm not familiar with the approach path here in relation to where the aircraft ended up but this situation/weather kinda has the ingredients to a frozen P2T2 sensor perhaps??? Might have been high on decent/approach with the power pulled way back allowing insufficient anti icing of the senor? Just a guess, but if they crashed short on the approach it might indicate insufficient power to stay on profile if they went to add some juice and the levers had little to no response. Maybe totally off but I do know of this happening elsewhere with Metros, etc...
Lots of N registered birds operating this side of the border semi-permanently.
My understanding of cabotage is operating point to point full revenue within Canada is forbidden for US birds (reverse applies to us). But operating from Canada to another international point with passengers is perfectly legal. Its obviously more complex running an N registered commercial aircraft this side of the border and may lead to some big fines if the t's and i's aren't dotted and crossed, but I would surprised if this was the case (bilingual crew or not).
I really hope it's not something as simple as an altimetry error but it sure would be simple to figure out.
contactapproved wrote:I'm not familiar with the approach path here in relation to where the aircraft ended up but this situation/weather kinda has the ingredients to a frozen P2T2 sensor perhaps??? Might have been high on decent/approach with the power pulled way back allowing insufficient anti icing of the senor? Just a guess, but if they crashed short on the approach it might indicate insufficient power to stay on profile if they went to add some juice and the levers had little to no response. Maybe totally off but I do know of this happening elsewhere with Metros, etc...
If that first one is a while back, I think that's Murray from NavAir and it was a sensor issue on the power loss. Great teamwork with ATC, and a good bit of luck.
Like 30 years back.
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schnitzel2k3 wrote:Lots of N registered birds operating this side of the border semi-permanently.
My understanding of cabotage is operating point to point full revenue within Canada is forbidden for US birds (reverse applies to us). But operating from Canada to another international point with passengers is perfectly legal. Its obviously more complex running an N registered commercial aircraft this side of the border and may lead to some big fines if the t's and i's aren't dotted and crossed, but I would surprised if this was the case (bilingual crew or not).
I really hope it's not something as simple as an altimetry error but it sure would be simple to figure out.
S.
I'd say that it was just a friend donating his aircraft to another friend in a sad situation that got sadder.
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A really easy cabotage rule of thumb for a Canadian operator is that for us to operate in the USA on charters, all our pax must either start or finish their journey in Canada. We can't pick up in the USA and then drop those pax off in the USA, they gotta come to Canada on the same trip.
Same applies for USA operators.
For them to operate in Canada, all their pax must either start or finish the trip in the USA.
Sulako wrote:A really easy cabotage rule of thumb for a Canadian operator is that for us to operate in the USA on charters, all our pax must either start or finish their journey in Canada. We can't pick up in the USA and then drop those pax off in the USA, they gotta come to Canada on the same trip.
Same applies for USA operators.
For them to operate in Canada, all their pax must either start or finish the trip in the USA.
I think we can only pick up passengers down there that we dropped off, but not fully sure on that.
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The tsb has released some aerial photos of the site. The props are both bent back, and look to be out of feather, indicating normal operation. The debris trail and fuselage damage is consistent with forward movement, and a fairly slow descent rate. Just my observations
Interesting set of photos on the TSB webpage. If the aircraft flew into the ground at a slight nose up attitude and lower airspeed in my mind the ground 'run' should have been longer and it was only 91 meters.
To me its almost like the aircraft may have been on a higher rate of descent with a more nose down attitude and then abruptly changed attitude and a secondary stall occured causing a high rate of descent nose up fuselage impact. It would then answer the short ground run, wing separation and fuselage breakup contained in such a small area. Just my thoughts. Nothing scientific.
