Egyptair MS804 drops off radar

[Turbolag]

Lost flight

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-ea ... ws_central

[photofly]

uh-oh.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-36309492

[cncpc]

Last radar contact 185 miles NNW of Alexandria, 37000 feet and 533 knots. Radar contact lost, however, the Guardian now reports that Egypt Air has claimed receiving a distress signal some two hours after the aircraft disappeared from radar. No call at all at the time of disappearance.

[boeingboy]

On May 20th 2016 The Aviation Herald received information from two independent channels, that ACARS (Aircraft Communications Addressing and Reporting System) messages with following content were received from the aircraft:

00:26Z 3044 ANTI ICE R WINDOW
00:26Z 561200 R SLIDING WINDOW SENSOR
00:26Z 2600 SMOKE LAVATORY SMOKE
00:27Z 2600 AVIONICS SMOKE
00:28Z 561100 R FIXED WINDOW SENSOR
00:29Z 2200 AUTO FLT FCU 2 FAULT
00:29Z 2700 F/CTL SEC 3 FAULT
no further ACARS messages were received

[fish4life]

Not sure what happened but just seeing those messages it looks like every pilots worst fear of smoke / fire on board

[Rockie]

I'm not speculating, but the window messages are a clue if those messages are true. The lav smoke and avionics smoke could possibly have been triggered by condensation from an explosive decompression. BUT, wait until the CVR and FDR are recovered which I'm positive they will be despite the water depth.

[DanWEC]

All window alerts on the right side, but the lav is on the left....hm.
Who knows though, nothing but speculative misinformation from the Middle East, followed by random retractions. 48 hours later and the reporting is still frustratingly tabloid quality.

[co-joe]

Anybody with 320 time that can tell exactly what those faults mean?

[boeingboy]

ANTI ICE R WINDOW - The window heat for the right side has failed

R SLIDING WINDOW SENSOR - The current temp sensor of the R sliding window has failed.
Each heated window has 2 temp sensors built into it. This message means the current sensor is faulty. Maintenance must swap pins in the cannon plug in order to use the other sensor.

SMOKE LAVATORY SMOKE - Smoke has been detected in the lavatory

AVIONICS SMOKE - Smoke has been detected in the exhaust duct of the avionics cooling system

R FIXED WINDOW SENSOR - Same as sliding window. The current temp sensor has failed.

AUTO FLT FCU 2 FAULT - The #2 FCU (flight control unit) has failed.
Simply put - the FCU controls the autopilot and auto throttles. You enter the info on the eyebrow panel. Heading, vertical speed, airspeed, etc....

F/CTL SEC 3 FAULT - SEC 3 has failed.
There are 3 SEC's (spoiler elevator computer) on the aircraft. They provide the primary control of the spoilers and backup control of the elevators.


It certainly seems to me like they had a problem in the fwd avionics compartment. I believe most if not all of these system controls are mounted on the rh side of the main E&E bay. I would have to visually check it at work to be sure though.

[boeingboy]

On May 21st 2016 Airbus confirmed all ACARS messages above as authentic and explained the "ANTI ICE R WINDOW" message was triggered by the Window Heat Computer #2 as well as the related 2 maintenance messages corresponding to the temperature sensors of the 2 right cockpit windows. The two smoke messages were triggered by their respective optical detectors. Airbus stated: "With the limited data available, the analysis of these messages does not allow to establish the sequence of events that would explain the loss of flight MS804. Pending more data become available (in particular flight data recorders and aircraft parts), Airbus has no specific recommendation to raise at this stage of the investigation."

[sportingrifle]

There are a few things that an Airbus pilot needs to know about this system. The first is that (by design) ANY smoke in the airplane anywhere, will likely trigger an avionics smoke warning as the the majority of the airflow in the airplane is passed through the avionics bay for cooling purposes. So if somebody is caught smoking in the washroom, don't immediatley panic if the avionics smoke warning triggers shortly afterwards.
The second issue is that the airplane has tremendous system redundancies built in to. If you are seeing multiple supposedly unrelated failures, something really really bad is probably happening. ie if the airplane is in emergency electrical configuration, you probably haven't had 5 unrelated simultaneous failures, you have probably had a fire weld 5 large capacity electrical 5 buss's together!
And the third thing to remember is that without any electrical power at all, you only have rudder and stab trim for control. Without the RAT in emerg elctrical config., the battery will last 20 min. but only if the battery bus remains intact.

So if you see more than one failure, followed by an avionics smoke warning, you need to think about getting the airplane on the ground very quickly. This issue is often not stressed in training, but instead students are given a hold to run a checklist.

Does anybody know if there was any hazmat on board the flight?

Cheers sportingrifle

[co-joe]

Thanks boeing boy, been reading on prune and the most clear explanation I have seen is from "Magplug":

The first engineering CFDS messages that were transmitted were:

00:26Z 3044 ANTI ICE R WINDOW
00:26Z 561200 R SLIDING WINDOW SENSOR
00:26Z 2600 SMOKE LAVATORY SMOKE

The first 2 are associated with a failure of WHC 2 in the avionics bay but only generate one ECAM warning between them which is:
ANTI ICE R WINDSHIELD. That's the first clue that all is not well as WHC2 fails in the avionics bay below the FO's feet.

The front part of the aircraft is not entirely segmented so smoke/fumes will not be confined to the avionics bay..... so the next bit of bad news is:

SMOKE LAVATORY SMOKE (presumably toilet A). Remember the toilet smoke detectors are not only sensitive (to gentleman's hair spray amongst other stuff) but they are also single channel, unlike:-

SMOKE AVIONICS SMOKE which goes straight to the top of the ECAM warning list in red, but remember.... it requires both of the 2 detectors to be triggered before the warning latches on so it is slower that a toilet warning. All the Airbus professionals here know where this warning is leading, especially if you already have evidence that something is going wrong in the avionics bay. So in no time at all the Smoke checklist takes you into Emergency Electrical Configuration (EEC) and the workload goes through the roof.

It is difficult enough hand flying a big jet at high altitude with everything working normally but the Captain is now flying at high altitude, with only his basic instrumentation with the aircraft in Alternate Law. As the crew of Air Asia 8501 found out.... flying at altitude in Alternate Law is VERY demanding on a pilot, trying to do that in an environment of increasing smoke, maybe already on oxygen may have been too much for them.

I would have also made a turn to the left, towards Paphos, in order to land ASAP. I believe control was lost shortly thereafter.

As scary as it gets.

[Eric Janson]

In the days before RVSM I would regularly hand fly large jets at high altitudes. In fact I've flown 2 - 4+30 sectors without the Autopilot as it was inoperative. Before RVSM the Autopilot was not a required item for dispatching the aircraft.

The aircraft is more sensitive to control inputs than at lower altitudes - but I don't agree this is somehow difficult.

I've only flown Alternate Law in the Sim - again the aircraft is more sensitive but it remains perfectly flyable. The Sim is always harder to fly than the real aircraft.

As for the Emergency Electrical Configuration in the A320 - I seem to remember the L PFD and ND remaining powered. It's been a few years since I last flew the A320 and I don't have the QRH.

None of the above should be reasons to lose control of the aircraft.

[Rockie]

Well, when you've been plunged into a situation where multiple systems are failing, alarms are going off, the ECAM suddenly becomes pages of amber and red messages, your auto-flight system disconnects and you are immediately flying a FBW aircraft at high altitude in alternate or possibly direct law with either a fire or explosive decompression at the same time - THEN you can say he shouldn't have lost control. Plus there is as yet no information saying that is all that was wrong with the plane. It's just some messages they know were triggered.

[Eric Janson]

Well, when you've been plunged into a situation where multiple systems are failing, alarms are going off, the ECAM suddenly becomes pages of amber and red messages, your auto-flight system disconnects and you are immediately flying a FBW aircraft at high altitude in alternate or possibly direct law with either a fire or explosive decompression at the same time - THEN you can say he shouldn't have lost control. Plus there is as yet no information saying that is all that was wrong with the plane. It's just some messages they know were triggered.

Since it's not clear what happened (Even airbus has said they are not sure what happened based on available data) I prefer not to speculate.

Unfortunately that hasn't stopped others from posting all kinds of nonsense - including the quote I responded to.

One more item in that post is the "left turn to Paphos". It appears that Alexandria was not only closer but would have been clearly visible directly ahead of the aircraft. Also it's far more logical to continue to a familiar airport than divert to an unfamiliar airport especially if it's closer.

I'm sure the CVR/FDR will provide the answers.

[Old fella]

For obvious reasons I can’t comment on aircraft type or airline/aviation operation in that neck of the woods. However the state controlled/run media reporting from that side of the world on this accident is below the level of the National Inquirer/ The Onion and the usual lot…… as for an official creditable accident investigation from Egypt – Right!!!

[Rockie]

as for an official creditable accident investigation from Egypt – Right!!!

Precisely. A strictly Egyptian report would belong at the bottom of a bird cage (Egypt Air 990) but fortunately the French are involved as well.

[co-joe]

All the more reason to indulge in our own speculation. Odds are their investigation is doing the same thing ours and pprune's is until the "black boxes" are analysed. A bunch of people with varied experience sittin around a table drinking coffee and spitballing ideas. Once you compile a list of probables you try to find supporting evidence with a large mangled jigsaw puzzle missing half the pieces. I'm sure all scenarios start out on the table until they are disproven.

The left turn speculation that seem possible to me is a turn to clear the airway while conducting an emergency descent. Apparently the newer bizjets will actually do this automatically with a loss of cabin pressure.

Explosive device and incendiary device still seem so far out there to me but I'm sure they will be discussed as possible until they are eliminated.

Does the A-320 come with ADS-B as an option now? I remember some of the MH370 discussion centred around it being available on the 777 but not used or disabled?

[Rockie]

Odds are their investigation is doing the same thing ours and pprune's is until the "black boxes" are analysed. A bunch of people with varied experience sittin around a table drinking coffee and spitballing ideas.

The official investigators have access to reams of information almost immediately that we don't, and more coming in everyday even without the CVR and FDR. They (the French) will diligently look at everything even if there is a smoking gun staring them in the face and as you say, rule out what didn't cause the crash. They most definitely are not speculating...

[pelmet]

Explosive device and incendiary device still seem so far out there to me but I'm sure they will be discussed as possible until they are eliminated.

How about....it is one of the most likely causes. Isn't this obvious?