Citation down North of Kelowna

[ChrisEvans]

There is a history of Citation's crashing on departure due to icing,
however a couple of other notable accidents also standout to me,

N385EM was a C650 - a compressor let go at 33,000 feet and aircraft plunged to
to the ground with no distress call

N550BP C550 one of several that suffered run-away-trim on departure resulting in
fatal crash into Lake Michigan - several Citation's of different models have suffered
run-away-trim.

N223LC C500 departed Santa Domingo crashing 3 miles off airport into water - never
found - so birds or ???

Just to add, believe one of the passengers was one of the co-owners of the aircraft -

[North Shore]

Were any of the passengers pilots?

I had read somewhere (reputable) that Mr. Prentice had a PPL, and perhaps a night rating as well..

[cncpc]

Were any of the passengers pilots?

I had read somewhere (reputable) that Mr. Prentice had a PPL, and perhaps a night rating as well..

Thanks. So it wouldn't be far fetched if the right seat was occupied?

[J31]

TSB reiterates call for expanded requirements for the use of Cockpit Voice Recorders and Flight Data Recorders, following the Kelowna accident

Gatineau, Quebec, 17 October 2016 − The Transportation Safety Board of Canada (TSB) team is currently in the Field phase of the investigation (A16P0186) into the 13 October 2016 accident north of Kelowna, British Columbia. Current activities are focused on the collection of information from the accident site and various other sources. Unfortunately, the absence of a Cockpit Voice Recorder (CVR) or a Flight Data Recorder (FDR) will make this investigation particularly challenging.

The privately-operated Cessna Citation involved in the crash was not equipped with, nor was it required to carry, a CVR or FDR. In Canada, only multi-engine, turbine-powered commercial aircraft flown by two pilots and carrying six or more passengers are required to carry a CVR on board.

“In Canada, Transport Canada requires medium and large commercial aircraft to be equipped with onboard flight recorders, but there are still no requirements for such recorders on smaller aircraft,” said Kathy Fox, Chair of the TSB. “As early as 1991, the Board made a recommendation calling for the upgrade of flight recorder requirements. This latest accident is another reminder of how important these recorders are. If we are to get to the underlying causes of these tragic accidents, Transport Canada and the aviation industry need to take immediate action to address this outstanding safety issue.”

Following TSB investigation A88O0491, the Board issued the following recommendation in 1991:

The Department of Transport expedite legislation for upgrading the flight recorder requirements for Canadian-registered aircraft. (TSB Recommendation A91-13)

Since then, the aviation industry has developed several different lightweight flight recording systems which could be installed in smaller aircraft at a low cost. These flight recording systems could be used by accident investigators to identify safety deficiencies and reduce risk in a timely manner.

As part of TSB investigation A11W0048, in 2013 the Board recommended that:

The Department of Transport work with industry to remove obstacles to and develop recommended practices for the implementation of flight data monitoring and the installation of lightweight flight recording systems by commercial operators not currently required to carry these systems. (TSB Recommendation A13-01)

“The TSB urges the industry and private corporate aircraft owners to take advantage of the new, low-cost flight recording technology to advance safety in their operations” said Chair Fox.

http://news.gc.ca/web/article-en.do?nid=1139449

[Mick G]

Birds seem unlikely at 8000, but even if so, communication would normally be possible. If the pilot was in fact incapacitated and the plane entered a stall, and if none of the people on board had flight training, but were able to reach the cockpit, it would only be natural to pull back the stick rather than push forward and apply power.

I'm sorry, I missed this... Where does it say that the aircraft increased power before impact?

Nobody has said they applied power, that is just standard practice to recover out of a stall. The point was that if the passengers were able to reach the cockpit with a incapacitated pilot and the plane out of control, the natural reaction would be to grab the stick and pull back. If they had no training, they might not know to push forward and apply power.

['97 Tercel]

I'm not sure how beneficial a CVR would be in a single-pilot flown aircraft. Better than nothing, but not worth requiring compliance on all single pilot operations.

What is the cost of a flight data recorder for an aircraft like a Citation?

[MrWings]

There is a call by the TSB for low cost flight recorders.

http://www.kelownacapnews.com/news/397376851.html

I am against making this mandatory, especially for private aircraft.

[cncpc]

Birds seem unlikely at 8000, but even if so, communication would normally be possible. If the pilot was in fact incapacitated and the plane entered a stall, and if none of the people on board had flight training, but were able to reach the cockpit, it would only be natural to pull back the stick rather than push forward and apply power.

I'm sorry, I missed this... Where does it say that the aircraft increased power before impact?

Nobody has said they applied power, that is just standard practice to recover out of a stall. The point was that if the passengers were able to reach the cockpit with a incapacitated pilot and the plane out of control, the natural reaction would be to grab the stick and pull back. If they had no training, they might not know to push forward and apply power.

I'm wondering what scenario you envision where power had to be applied to get out of the stall. How would power have ever gotten back in the first place?

[Kitzbuhel]

I'm sorry, I missed this... Where does it say that the aircraft increased power before impact?

Nobody has said they applied power, that is just standard practice to recover out of a stall. The point was that if the passengers were able to reach the cockpit with a incapacitated pilot and the plane out of control, the natural reaction would be to grab the stick and pull back. If they had no training, they might not know to push forward and apply power.

I'm wondering what scenario you envision where power had to be applied to get out of the stall. How would power have ever gotten back in the first place?

Controlled climb below 10k to not bust 250? Disclaimer, I don't know the performance of the citation but the jet I fly doesn't often use full power on the climb below 10k.

[Mick G]

I'm sorry, I missed this... Where does it say that the aircraft increased power before impact?

Nobody has said they applied power, that is just standard practice to recover out of a stall. The point was that if the passengers were able to reach the cockpit with a incapacitated pilot and the plane out of control, the natural reaction would be to grab the stick and pull back. If they had no training, they might not know to push forward and apply power.

I'm wondering what scenario you envision where power had to be applied to get out of the stall. How would power have ever gotten back in the first place?

When a stall is about to happen, the wing is positioned in such a way that it ceases to create lift and in order to regain lift, the wings angle of attack needs to be decreased to allow airflow and in turn, lift. If a stall has happened, the first step to recovering and regaining controlled flight with positive lift, is to apply power and push the nose down to help regain airspeed over the wing. Think of a plane dropping out of the sky with no forward motion; in order to regain lift, power application might not be enough. Power combined with pushing the nose down is the best way of recovering.

[cncpc]

Nobody has said they applied power, that is just standard practice to recover out of a stall. The point was that if the passengers were able to reach the cockpit with a incapacitated pilot and the plane out of control, the natural reaction would be to grab the stick and pull back. If they had no training, they might not know to push forward and apply power.

I'm wondering what scenario you envision where power had to be applied to get out of the stall. How would power have ever gotten back in the first place?

When a stall is about to happen, the wing is positioned in such a way that it ceases to create lift and in order to regain lift, the wings angle of attack needs to be decreased to allow airflow and in turn, lift. If a stall has happened, the first step to recovering and regaining controlled flight with positive lift, is to apply power and push the nose down to help regain airspeed over the wing. Think of a plane dropping out of the sky with no forward motion; in order to regain lift, power application might not be enough. Power combined with pushing the nose down is the best way of recovering.

Not challenging what you say, Mick. How does this stall happen? In these circumstances, in the climb, on autopilot?

[Cat Driver]

When a stall is about to happen, the wing is positioned in such a way that it ceases to create lift and in order to regain lift, the wings angle of attack needs to be decreased to allow airflow and in turn, lift. If a stall has happened, the first step to recovering and regaining controlled flight with positive lift, is to apply power

When did that become the correct method?

[CpnCrunch]

When did that become the correct method?

It seems to be what TC advises:

https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/ ... 27-238.htm

[PilotDAR]

When did that become the correct method?

Yeah Cat, that caught my eye too (with horror!). Before commenting, I referred to a Citation training manual I have, and I was very alarmed to read nothing in there about reducing AoA during a stall, but rather adding maximum permitted power. That said, it did not seem to be a Cessna publication. I hope Cessna does it better!

It alarms me terribly that application of power would precede reduction of AoA as a stall recovery technique. The only time that could ever be a good idea would be if you've got the plane hanging on power too high to allow it to safely touch the surface but too low to allow for a reduction of AoA. But, if you stalled a plane there, you were asking for trouble anyway!

A very important thing to remember, is that near the stall, the ailerons are less effective, and might aggravate a stall into a spin if used at the point of the stall. But, if at the point of the stall you add full power in a propeller powered aircraft, you are adding a whole bunch of destabiizing torque.

[CpnCrunch]

It alarms me terribly that application of power would precede reduction of AoA as a stall recovery technique.

Nobody said that...Mick was talking about simultaneous application of power and reducing AoA (I assume).

When you are close to the ground, isn't it better to do that than to reduce AoA and then apply power?

[Cat Driver]

Word use is very important when giving advice on how to control an aircraft.

Angle of attack is what determines when the air-foil stalls.

And that includes rotary wing aircraft.

I can not believe that training airplanes do not have AOA indicators in them considering how little it would add to the cost of the airplane.

[tohellnback]

lets go to conspiracy theory
all the technical theories from you all experts don't add up
we don't even know if someone was sitting in the right seat
no mayday or so called transponder que transmit for hijack
the plane fell out of the sky 8 miles from kelowna
don't you think that TC would be asking these questions first
my opinion

Pilot had a coronary or was incapacitated from a passenger
MH 370 had the same results
good luck

[Big Pistons Forever]

The latest TC thinking on Stall Recovery is in Advisory Circular AC 700-031

Its' advice is pretty ambiguous

From the AC

The key focus of this Advisory Circular (AC) includes the following core principles:
(a) Prevention of stall events through effective recognition, avoidance, and recovery should they be encountered;
(b) Reduction of Angle of Attack (AOA) is the most important response when confronted with a stall event;
(c) Evaluation criteria for a recovery from a stall or approach-to-stall does not mandate a predetermined value for altitude loss and should consider the multitude of external and internal variables which affect the recovery altitude;
(d) Realistic scenarios that could be encountered in operational conditions including stalls encountered with the autopilot engaged;
(e) Pilot training which emphasizes treating an "approach-to-stall" the same as a "full stall," and execute the stall recovery at the first indication of a stall;
(f) Incorporation of stick pusher training into flight training scenarios, if installed on the aircraft.

[tohellnback]

how could a pilot be so stupid and kill
is it a crap shoot when you get on a GA plane
what with you fly boys
maybe he was texting

[North Shore]

lets go to conspiracy theory
all the technical theories from you all experts don't add up
we don't even know if someone was sitting in the right seat
no mayday or so called transponder que transmit for hijack
the plane fell out of the sky 8 miles from kelowna
don't you think that TC would be asking these questions first
my opinion

Pilot had a coronary or was incapacitated from a passenger
MH 370 had the same results
good luck

Step away from the crack pipe, man! Two of the four men on board were related, and the pilot was an ex-cop. Hardly a recipie for skulduggery and bad intent.