AC A320 slides off runway at YYZ

[FICU]

You can't groove runways in such cold climates because of ice expansion in the grooves during the winter.

Norman Wells, NWT is grooved.

[cossack]

Norman Wells, NWT is grooved.

Do they push 1000+ flights a day through there in a snow storm? No? Didn't think so.
Oh, sorry. That was sarcasm again.

[GyvAir]

Ottawa has grooved runway

I was thinking more of MIA-type of grooves. The one's that actually work.

What are differences between the grooving in Ottawa vs MIA?
I tried a bit of googling, but didn't come up with anything definitive.

[av8ts]

Norman Wells, NWT is grooved.

Do they push 1000+ flights a day through there in a snow storm? No? Didn't think so.
Oh, sorry. That was sarcasm again.

The poster said you can't groove in cold climates. The number of flights is irrelevant to weather you can groove or not

[We_tu_lo]

They didn't land wide, short, long, or hard. They landed, and then were not able to stay on the runway. Why? Don't know yet. But given the apparently minimal damage and total lack of injuries and fatalities, yeah I'd say it's pretty benign as incidents go.

Don't cherry-pick my words, please.

I'd like to see a source for this. 3rd degree rumours I've heard say otherwise.

[GyvAir]

Somebody reading this must have seen the tracks. How down the runway were they when the wheels left the runway? (Wouldn't tell the whole story, of course, but if the muddy tracks start at the numbers, it would indicate having missed the runway, rather than sliding off)

[FICU]

Norman Wells, NWT is grooved.

Do they push 1000+ flights a day through there in a snow storm? No? Didn't think so.
Oh, sorry. That was sarcasm again.

What are you on about?

[Cat Driver]

So the way it now stands no one will tell us if it landed on the runway and went off or if it landed off the runway and went on it.

Why does it take a couple of years to get an answer to such simple questions?

Does keeping these issues secret improve aviation safety?

[cossack]

Norman Wells, NWT is grooved.

Do they push 1000+ flights a day through there in a snow storm? No? Didn't think so.
Oh, sorry. That was sarcasm again.

What are you on about?

The point I was trying to make was during snow at YYZ there are a lot of aircraft still trying to use the airport and we fit the snow clearing in around them.
In Norman Wells the plows can be on the runway almost all day if required, only leaving the field to allow the occasional flight to land or depart, thus spending more time cleaning the surfaces. A luxury not afforded to YYZ. Yes we have a lot of equipment but cleaning a runway in 15 minutes is the aim, not necessarily making it perfect, just usable.

[cossack]

The poster said you can't groove in cold climates. The number of flights is irrelevant to weather you can groove or not

I wasn't that poster. I am of the opinion that trying to clear snow and ice off a grooved runway that is still being used extensively will be more problematic than doing so on an un-grooved runway.

[pelmet]

I will say though that departing the side of the runways is not the same as landing short of it.

Either way AC's safety rating is going down again as it did for 2016 after the Halifax incident.

[GyvAir]

I am of the opinion that trying to clear snow and ice off a grooved runway that is still being used extensively will be more problematic than doing so on an un-grooved runway.

What would the differences be in how they handle snow and ice removal?

[cossack]

What would the differences be in how they handle snow and ice removal?

They would have less time pressure. At YYZ it's all about getting them done ASAP, whereas somewhere with less traffic can take more time. I still think once the grooves are full of snow and ice, it will be all but Impossible to keep the runway usable by large types.

[Eric Janson]

Weather was within limits for that runway. If it wasn't, they wouldn't have landed on it. Why they didn't stay on it is a separate matter.
We don't go into LVO before the weather dictates it. There is RVO first and all runways in YYZ are available for RVO. If we went LVO and advertised Cat2 and 3 only the airlines would say we are being too restrictive. Can't have it both ways.

For everyone's info major airports in Europe have several phases of LVO depending on ceiling and visibility.

Example:- Amsterdam Schiphol Airport has 4 phases (A/B/C/D). Reference is Jeppesen EHAM chart 10-1P1.

Disclaimer:- I don't work for Air Canada

All the A320's I've ever flown have been fully Cat3b capable - that includes aircraft with serial numbers around 150.

I would normally only make an autoland off a Cat1 ILS in VFR conditions and even then I'd be very reluctant to do it. Plenty that can go wrong.

I can't imagine any Airline crew doing an autoland off a Cat1 ILS in marginal conditions.

[rxl]

What would the differences be in how they handle snow and ice removal?

They would have less time pressure. At YYZ it's all about getting them done ASAP, whereas somewhere with less traffic can take more time. I still think once the grooves are full of snow and ice, it will be all but Impossible to keep the runway usable by large types.

How about MSP for comparison? An airport that moves a comparable number of flights to YYZ with a similar climate has all runways grooved. I have operated there many times in the winter and they have no problem keeping the runways in good shape.
I have no idea what happened in this particular incident but in general grooved runways make a big improvement in stopping an airplane.

[tbaylx]

So the way it now stands no one will tell us if it landed on the runway and went off or if it landed off the runway and went on it.

Why does it take a couple of years to get an answer to such simple questions?

Does keeping these issues secret improve aviation safety?

Would knowing that to satisfy your curiosity really improve safety?

How about letting the investigators do their jobs and if they find something that needs to be communicated before a report (if there is one) they have methods of doing that.
Releasing available information as soon as its known and before analyzing it as a whole doesn't serve anyone except the curiosity of armchair quarterbacks.

If there is a immediate threat to safety identified it goes out immediately and before a final report.

[pelmet]

Somebody reading this must have seen the tracks. How down the runway were they when the wheels left the runway? (Wouldn't tell the whole story, of course, but if the muddy tracks start at the numbers, it would indicate having missed the runway, rather than sliding off)

I saw the tracks today from the pax window while climbing off of 23R. I have to admit that I was paying more attention to the length of the excursion that where it started but I would guess based on memory that it started about 4-4500 feet from the threshold. I estimated the excursion to be about 1500' long with only the right main leaving the runway.

[pelmet]

More YYZ bashing for no good reason.

Sky clear and crosswind, use the 06's and 05.

Light winds and low vis, land aircraft on the shortest wet runway with no centerline lighting: 15R....

Got to love CYYZ. Never surprised.

Your first line describes the usual operation where we are capacity constrained and using the E-W runways with a high crosswind to maintain the capacity that your airlines demand. We'd happily go to the 33s or 15s and you can sit on the ground elsewhere for a couple of hours. I guess it is partially just attitude.

Get a grip.

Heathrow with two runways has 30,000 more movements per year than YYZ. Instead of making excuses, how about learning something from others.

Ever heard of Time Based Separation. That is just one difference between those who move tin and those that threaten you with two hour delays if their precious third parallel runway is not available.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_b ... _movements

[Cat Driver]

What value could possibly be gained from releasing information if the aircraft landed on the infield or the runway?

Well from my perspective as a professional pilot with many, many licenses and having been flying for sixty four years knowing if the incident / accident was a mechanical failure or a crew failure does make a difference because just ignoring crew failure should that be the cause of said event means I am intellectually lazy and prone to becoming complacent and disinterested in safe aircraft handling and thinking ahead of what where I am at the moment in an aircraft.

I realize you may think differently which is your prerogative.

The TSB will do its job and if and when information is discovered that is of value to advancing aviation safety it gets released.

Having flown worldwide for many decades it is my opinion the Canadian TSB is one of the slowest fact finding groups on the planet, by the time their reports are released there have been many more incidents / accidents for them to investigate thus the lessons if any to be learned have been eclipsed by many more of the same types of events.

Maybe you could enlighten me on why they take so long to release their reports.

From my own experience with them I have come to the conclusion I would not offer any information to them because it is my experience they are more politically motivated than safety motivated.

The TSB will do its job and if and when information is discovered that is of value to advancing aviation safety it gets released.

I do not share your opinion, as you can see from my comments.

But as a good Canadian you are free to live safe in the arms of your Government caretakers.

[livinlife]

I was involved once in an aviation accident investigation. I wasn't in the airplane but had to answer several questions pertaining to the flight. I knew, and the investigator knew what had happened. But the report said something completely different and bogus.

I was informed by this investigator, that what happens is a rough draft gets sent to all parties involved. Aircraft Manufacturer, Airline Operator, Crew members that survived etc. He said if any parties have a problem with what is in the report, they simply need to highlight the area and its omitted, wether this happens today I have no clue, but this is what was said to me.