WestJet almost puts one in the drink

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C.W.E.
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Re: WestJet almost puts one in the drink

Post by C.W.E. »

Height judgement over water in reduced visibility is a bit tricky in my experience, but that's just me.
It is not just you, it can be very tricky.
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Dry Guy
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Re: WestJet almost puts one in the drink

Post by Dry Guy »

confusedalot wrote: Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:48 pm Too lazy to read the whole thread but I get the gist.

I confirm to anybody out there that the FMC, if properly set up, will get you to the threshold of the runway at the proper altitude and the proper position. It's been doing that since 1988 from my first experiences with the equipment and well before that, even before gps became popular. IRS, DME/DME, VOR/VOR, VOR/DME, and all of those sort of rnav combinations get you to your target.

Most pilots keep an eye on their magic even if they are visual. Yet, we as humans, do in fact get distracted. They fell into the trap, and that is not a condemnation or judgement. Shit happens as they say. Those two will never fall into that trap again.

Height judgement over water in reduced visibility is a bit tricky in my experience, but that's just me.
From what I've read above it sounds like Westjet's policy is to turn off the flight directors if continuing past the MAP. I'm not sure if that is only for this approach or for all approaches. The MAP for this approach was at 2 miles before the runway so they would just have raw data to go on from then which is easier to ignore than a flight director showing you way below your previous glidepath.
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pelmet
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Re: WestJet almost puts one in the drink

Post by pelmet »

Dry Guy wrote: Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:20 pm The poster a few above you said the FMC would not take you to the airport. I guess there is no waypoint there? So following your FD's to continue the approach apparently would not work.
If you re-read my post, you will see that I was very, very, very careful with my words. I made contingencies for various aircraft and technological set-ups as to what would be the best thing to do to remain on a proper path to the runway in conditions conducive to a visual segment becoming destabilized.

"Depending on how the FMC is configured, on some Boeings, the path of some non-precision approaches in the FMC will take you to 50 feet above the runway in a proper position to land with command bars. If familiar with the FMC waypoints, you can tell this by looking at the waypoints in the FMC. Then you can just follow command bars while having your marginal but legal required visual references which in reality, provide little depth perception and quite possibly, misleading cues."

"If for some reason, you won't be using the flight director cues from the FMC generated path, you might consider using the VS function to give you similar flight director guidance or the more accurate Flight Path Angle if it is installed. A simple push of the appropriate button at the desired, stable descent rate give a continuation of what you already have. But even without this stuff, you can do just like in the good old days......if you know you are on the proper descent angle, just maintain the same rate of descent which can be maintain by maintaining the same pitch once the autopilot has been disconnected."

It is correct that in some cases, the FD's will not take you to the desired location. It is important to be aware of this. Many years ago, a Air France ran a 747 off the runway in Tahiti following an unstabilized approach after trying to follow command bars on an early software FMC which levelled the aircraft instead of continuing the descent.

https://www.google.com/search?q=air+fra ... SUBRvre6lM:
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Re: WestJet almost puts one in the drink

Post by DropTanks »

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CCR
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Re: WestJet almost puts one in the drink

Post by CCR »

If the FD is not turned off, it commands the missed approach turn and climb.
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J31
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Re: WestJet almost puts one in the drink

Post by J31 »

CCR wrote: Thu Jun 07, 2018 6:30 am If the FD is not turned off, it commands the missed approach turn and climb.
FINALLY someone who understands the ST Maarten RNAV Rwy 10 approach and what the Boeing 737 Classic/NG/Max flight director does at MAPON. MAPON is the missed approach point 2 miles from the runway.

That is why it is a visual maneuver with no lateral or vertical electronic guidance the last 2 miles to the runway.
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Donald
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Re: WestJet almost puts one in the drink

Post by Donald »

You guys are missing the point.

The PM did not call out the sink rate deviation. (Although the CVR is missing, so who really knows).

This is a failure of situational awareness, and failure of the PM. Just like SFO.
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pelmet
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Re: WestJet almost puts one in the drink

Post by pelmet »

J31 wrote: Thu Jun 07, 2018 3:24 pm
CCR wrote: Thu Jun 07, 2018 6:30 am If the FD is not turned off, it commands the missed approach turn and climb.
FINALLY someone who understands the ST Maarten RNAV Rwy 10 approach and what the Boeing 737 Classic/NG/Max flight director does at MAPON. MAPON is the missed approach point 2 miles from the runway.

That is why it is a visual maneuver with no lateral or vertical electronic guidance the last 2 miles to the runway.
Meaning one can fly the old fashioned way when the outside visual is as it was in figure 3 of the report. By maintaining pitch, power, and attitude while things become clearer although on some Boeing's, you can just select V/S and the command bars will display in such a way so as to maintain the rate of descent at the time of VS selection. FPA could do the same. All the while having the murky visual references but little depth perception.
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Eric Janson
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Re: WestJet almost puts one in the drink

Post by Eric Janson »

J31 wrote: Thu Jun 07, 2018 3:24 pm
CCR wrote: Thu Jun 07, 2018 6:30 am If the FD is not turned off, it commands the missed approach turn and climb.
FINALLY someone who understands the ST Maarten RNAV Rwy 10 approach and what the Boeing 737 Classic/NG/Max flight director does at MAPON. MAPON is the missed approach point 2 miles from the runway.

That is why it is a visual maneuver with no lateral or vertical electronic guidance the last 2 miles to the runway.
It seems to me that pushing HDG would be a smart move at MAPON - if I remember correctly the vertical mode will go to V/S. Leave the automatics until the aircraft is closer to the runway and then disconnect. Certainly lowers the workload and would have prevented what happened imho.
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Re: WestJet almost puts one in the drink

Post by photofly »

If there is little or no depth perception, how can you have to the “required visual reference necessary to continue the approach to land”?

For reference:

“required visual reference, in respect of an aircraft on an approach to a runway, means that portion of the approach area of the runway or those visual aids that, when viewed by the pilot of the aircraft, enable the pilot to make an assessment of the aircraft position and rate of change of position, in order to continue the approach and complete a landing; (référence visuelle requise)”

I guess what I’m asking is, if you need the command bars to continue the approach past the MAP (and can’t complete it safely without them) even if you have a visual reference, how are you meeting the intent of having a missed approach point?
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pelmet
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Re: WestJet almost puts one in the drink

Post by pelmet »

photofly wrote: Sat Jun 09, 2018 6:29 am If there is little or no depth perception, how can you have to the “required visual reference necessary to continue the approach to land”?

For reference:

“required visual reference, in respect of an aircraft on an approach to a runway, means that portion of the approach area of the runway or those visual aids that, when viewed by the pilot of the aircraft, enable the pilot to make an assessment of the aircraft position and rate of change of position, in order to continue the approach and complete a landing; (référence visuelle requise)”

I guess what I’m asking is, if you need the command bars to continue the approach past the MAP (and can’t complete it safely without them) even if you have a visual reference, how are you meeting the intent of having a missed approach point?
This is where the ideal world collides with the real world. One need only ask themeselves doing an approach on a clear dark night up north where the only lights are the runway lights. Have you really got depth perception? Yet you have the required visual references and it is actually good VFR.

There is logic in the way the CARS are written on the subject but if one relies on following the CAR's exclusively to the letter of the law, they will be cancelling flights when it is perfectly reasonable to go flying and go flying when the flight should be cancelled.

That is the reality of being a pilot and the reason that good judgement is required to be a safe pilot.
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photofly
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Re: WestJet almost puts one in the drink

Post by photofly »

pelmet wrote: Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:13 am if one relies on following the CAR's exclusively to the letter of the law...
I guess I missed the class on deciding which CARs are optional. On this topic, perhaps approach minimums should be considered advisory?
pelmet wrote: Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:13 am One need only ask themeselves doing an approach on a clear dark night up north where the only lights are the runway lights.
Do you need command bars to fly in those circumstances? What I’m reading in this thread is that at Sint Maaaarten, you do. If the visual references are so poor that you can only follow the FD then why not just leave the autopilot on and have done with it.
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digits_
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Re: WestJet almost puts one in the drink

Post by digits_ »

photofly wrote: Sat Jun 09, 2018 6:29 am If there is little or no depth perception, how can you have to the “required visual reference necessary to continue the approach to land”?

For reference:

“required visual reference, in respect of an aircraft on an approach to a runway, means that portion of the approach area of the runway or those visual aids that, when viewed by the pilot of the aircraft, enable the pilot to make an assessment of the aircraft position and rate of change of position, in order to continue the approach and complete a landing; (référence visuelle requise)”

I guess what I’m asking is, if you need the command bars to continue the approach past the MAP (and can’t complete it safely without them) even if you have a visual reference, how are you meeting the intent of having a missed approach point?
That might be true, but isn't that the case with any ifr approach to minima? If you see one runway light at minima during an RNAV approach, can you really claim you have assessed all the necessary parameters in less than a second to allow you to continue? Yet it is common practice to continue the approach at that point. Same with an ILS at night where one approach light pops up. You're visual, but you don't have enough info to land the plane, you are counting on all those other lights to appear in the next 10 seconds before you touch down.
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Re: WestJet almost puts one in the drink

Post by photofly »

digits_ wrote: Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:17 pm ... Same with an ILS at night where one approach light pops up. You're visual, but you don't have enough info to land the plane, you are counting on all those other lights to appear in the next 10 seconds before you touch down.
Are you still flying the plane using the command bars on the FD during those 10 seconds? Or the ILS guidance?

This ... seems to be cheating horribly (I just realized it was your comment:)
Push the VS button(or FPA if you are lucky enough to have it) and stay partially inside while maintaining the same descent rate using the flight director bars.
If the guidance is considered to be good enough for that to be ok, why are the minimums there at all?

Someone else wrote "Most pilots keep an eye on their magic even if they are visual." That seems reasonable. But when the magic says one thing, and your eyes say something else, which do you trust? I thought the whole point of continuing past minimums was that you had to have enough to trust your eyes, and not the magic.
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Re: WestJet almost puts one in the drink

Post by digits_ »

photofly wrote: Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:30 pm
Are you still flying the plane using the command bars on the FD during those 10 seconds? Or the ILS guidance?
A mix of both. On the RNAV example, with higher minima, you'd be using the guidance more initially.

Basically like this:
photofly wrote: Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:30 pm
Someone else wrote "Most pilots keep an eye on their magic even if they are visual." That seems reasonable. But when the magic says one thing, and your eyes say something else, which do you trust? I thought the whole point of continuing past minimums was that you had to have enough to trust your eyes, and not the magic.
A big difference at that stage would probably result in a go-around. If anything, you'd be either confused or unstable, neither of those options have a high chance of turning into a succesful landing.
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Re: WestJet almost puts one in the drink

Post by pelmet »

photofly wrote: Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:57 am
pelmet wrote: Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:13 am if one relies on following the CAR's exclusively to the letter of the law...
I guess I missed the class on deciding which CARs are optional. On this topic, perhaps approach minimums should be considered advisory?
Of course, you will always win the argument of whether or not the CAR's are optional. There is even a CAR(and FAR) about reckless operation of an aircraft in which one can be guilty of reckless operation for many of the things we do on a regular basis. For example, considering an engine failure in a single engine aircraft point of view.....you chose to takeoff on the closer but much shorter runway instead of the much longer but much further away runway and therefore were reckless in case you lost your engine at a critical moment. Or you chose to fly at a lower altitude than you could have over the city and therefore couldn't have made that nice field for an emergency landing that you could if you had chosen to fly 5000 feet higher). In other words, you are always breaking the CAR's

As I said, there is a real world out there and one can have a black and white interpretation on all kinds of regulations from required visual reference to personal fatigue management to VFR requirements. I remember one particular type of operation I flew in the past where i was convinced that if one were to interpret the CAR's literally, no flight would ever have been legal.

This sort of a discussion came up in a thread I had recently where one of the strobe lights on a C172 has burned out which makes a flight illegal even in the daytime. I am quite confident that given such a situation, you Photofly, would choose the option to take your C172 back to home base, regardless of how you might respond on this forum about it and regardless of the non-optional CAR's.

The reality of the airline world(the safest mode of air transportation) is that thousands of approaches are flown to minimums each year by our carriers. Using an ILS as an example, when they get a few lights in view at minimums, one can argue that they should go around because there is initially, little depth perception at the DH due to fog, rain on windshield, or snowfall situations. But the reality is...the pilots usually continue for landing and they continue safely because they use their on-board equipment in the appropriate manner for a little bit longer until things become much clearer and depth perception is acquired. Something that I suggest was not appropriately done in Saint Martin.

As a final note....check out this video of a King Air flight to ILS minimums. Perhaps any IFR airline pilot can answer if they would go around based on the picture seen at 3:31 which is when minimums are announced. I would continue and so would most others but is it legal? I don't see depth perception here, therefore it is not legal. But this is the real world and few are going to do a missed approach in this situation. That being said, you would be a fool suddenly just fly visually at this point but there is nothing particularly unsafe about continuing if done properly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxUsvw6gHhc
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Re: WestJet almost puts one in the drink

Post by Eric Janson »

photofly wrote: Sat Jun 09, 2018 6:29 am If there is little or no depth perception, how can you have to the “required visual reference necessary to continue the approach to land”?

For reference:

“required visual reference, in respect of an aircraft on an approach to a runway, means that portion of the approach area of the runway or those visual aids that, when viewed by the pilot of the aircraft, enable the pilot to make an assessment of the aircraft position and rate of change of position, in order to continue the approach and complete a landing; (référence visuelle requise)”

I guess what I’m asking is, if you need the command bars to continue the approach past the MAP (and can’t complete it safely without them) even if you have a visual reference, how are you meeting the intent of having a missed approach point?
It's not a depth perception issue.

Approaches are designed so that at minimums you have the required references to continue to a safe landing.

That means you have to be able to determine your horizontal and vertical position relative to the runway.

For the horizontal position there's the runway lights/Approach lights/Localiser.

For the vertical part there's the PAPI/VASI/GS.

On a non precision approach you will be flying the segment from the MDA to the runway VFR in IFR conditions. This is one of the reasons accident rates are much higher on non precision approaches.

Continuing an approach past/below MDA without having the runway/lights in sight is not acceptable.

Lower visibility results in the horizon being closer which makes the horizon line lower when looking outside. This creates the illusion of the aircraft pitch being high with an instinctive nose down input being the result. In this incident this is exactly what happened but the report doesn't discuss optical illusions.

By using the Flight Directors (with the appropriate modes) you can create an extra crosscheck that things are not getting out of hand - this certainly would have helped here imho.

You can also create an extended runway centreline on the moving map display which can be extremely useful if you are flying an approach that is offset. I think this would also have helped here - but the report doesn't discuss this.

No issue with the King Air video posted earlier - that's what an ILS to minimums looks like.
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Re: WestJet almost puts one in the drink

Post by digits_ »

Eric Janson wrote: Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:28 pm

It's not a depth perception issue.
[....]

That means you have to be able to determine [..] vertical position relative to the runway.
Isn't that exactly what depth perception is?

Question: ILS to minima, at minima you can see only the first flashing light of the rabbit (not sure what the official name is). Can you continue the approach?
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Re: WestJet almost puts one in the drink

Post by wrightflyer »

digits_ wrote: Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:30 pm
Question: ILS to minima, at minima you can see only the first flashing light of the rabbit (not sure what the official name is). Can you continue the approach?
Everyone will have a different answer. In the video provided the ceiling is not 200' (the vis is closer to 1/4 SM), for if it were at the 3:31' mark of the video you should have seen all of the runway lights right up to the green threshold bars.

ALSF2 lighting (on the runway flown in the video) is 2400' long, which is 1/2 SM. From 1/2 SM on a 3 deg glidepath you are 200' AGL. Vis on that approach as indicated in the video is 1/4 SM.

If you are familiar with the lighting system installed on the runway(published on your handy approach plate) then you have to assess if the required visual reference to land exists. Makes this decision very subjective and individual. As everyone will see something different from that video.
KSHV plate.pdf
(59.17 KiB) Downloaded 40 times
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Re: WestJet almost puts one in the drink

Post by photofly »

Eric Janson wrote: Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:28 pm Lower visibility results in the horizon being closer which makes the horizon line lower when looking outside.
I don’t follow this. If anything, I would expect the opposite to be true - a distant horizon is depressed because of earth curvature. Can you explain in more detail?
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