Lear 35 Crash at Teterboro

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totalflyer
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Lear 35 Crash at Teterboro

Post by totalflyer »

Apparently airport has been closed.
Lear 35 from PHL to TEB crashed during the circle from runway 6 to 1.

http://abc7ny.com/news/2-dead-in-fiery- ... t/1996145/

Rest in Peace to the flightcrew
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Last edited by totalflyer on Fri May 19, 2017 5:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Rightseatdriver
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Re: Lear 35 Crash at Teterboro

Post by Rightseatdriver »

totalflyer wrote:Apparently airport has been closed.
Lear 35 from PHL to TEB crashed during the circle from runway 6 to 1.

http://abc7ny.com/news/2-dead-in-fiery- ... t/1996145/

Rest in Piece to the flightcrew
Peace*

Tragic news, condolences to the families.
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cdnpilot77
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Re: Lear 35 Crash at Teterboro

Post by cdnpilot77 »

RIP to this crew!

This pissed me off, a quote from the police chief...
The plane was seen listing to its left side so obviously there was some sort of malfunction.
No, it's not obvious there was a malfunction, the airplane was turning final on the circling approach...winds 320 15g32kts and the sharp low altitude low energy left turn leads to a lot more possibilities than just a malfunction. Someone in such a position should know better.
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ditar
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Re: Lear 35 Crash at Teterboro

Post by ditar »

We all know that lay persons don't know any better. I'm sure there will be half a dozen eyewitness reports of engines struggling, sputtering and/or on fire too.

Terrible video to watch.
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Re: Lear 35 Crash at Teterboro

Post by cdnpilot77 »

ditar wrote:We all know that lay persons don't know any better.
But a chief of police is not a lay person and should know better!
Terrible video to watch
That really was awful.
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anofly
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Re: Lear 35 Crash at Teterboro

Post by anofly »

ignore the folks that want to talk and sound in control when they have not a clue.
There is another tape, with a somewhat credible witness. The plane first hit , upside down on its roof. "belly up" he said. That is not pretty, somehow it flipped over on short final, and landed on its roof, showering burning fuel shortly across a fairly long path.
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crj_705
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Re: Lear 35 Crash at Teterboro

Post by crj_705 »

anofly wrote:ignore the folks that want to talk and sound in control when they have not a clue.
There is another tape, with a somewhat credible witness. The plane first hit , upside down on its roof. "belly up" he said. That is not pretty, somehow it flipped over on short final, and landed on its roof, showering burning fuel shortly across a fairly long path.


My condolences to the families of the two flight crew involved, and the pilots (R.I.P); AND the many people's lives who are going to be affected by this horrible crash...

Don't know much about Lear 35's but are they susceptible to a 'split flap' scenario, especially at low altitude?
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Bolter
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Re: Lear 35 Crash at Teterboro

Post by Bolter »

Split flap shouldn't be an issue as the 2 sides are linked. Lear 35s are very sensitive to being slow, final turn stalls are not unknown. Picture of aircraft shows it has Aronca TRs - can be "touchy" & only armed on before landing/final check depending on SOPs. See what the TSB finds.
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Re: Lear 35 Crash at Teterboro

Post by ehbuddy »

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nottellin
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Re: Lear 35 Crash at Teterboro

Post by nottellin »

Its a miracle nobody on the ground was even hurt, such a densely populated area around there.
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schnitzel2k3
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Re: Lear 35 Crash at Teterboro

Post by schnitzel2k3 »

Absolutely tragic news. It is fortunate no one was injured or killed near the crash site.

TRs look stowed during the freeze frame video. I've done those circles into TEB many times before and its always a nervewracking experience. They like you to keep it within 2 miles and most of the times Ive been cleared the circle, its after being cleared the ILS for a crossing runway, so it almost always comes as a surprise.

You could hear from the audio, that the controllers were more focused on where they were parking versus letting them land....

S.
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crj_705
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Re: Lear 35 Crash at Teterboro

Post by crj_705 »

Bolter wrote:Split flap shouldn't be an issue as the 2 sides are linked. Lear 35s are very sensitive to being slow, final turn stalls are not unknown. Picture of aircraft shows it has Aronca TRs - can be "touchy" & only armed on before landing/final check depending on SOPs. See what the TSB finds.

thank you
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tailgunner
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Re: Lear 35 Crash at Teterboro

Post by tailgunner »

There was a crash at . AFB involving a C21 ( Lear 35) about 14 years ago that was a after numerous same direction circuits. I can't recall the findings, but seem to remember a gotcha with an open cross feed switch/valve allowing fuel to displace to the low wing tank. If I recall, this led to a quickly developing fuel imbalance that cause severe handling problems. When they mention 'circling' , are they also,talking about a holding type pattern as well as a runway change maneuver? If so, I think the hold time may be a critical fact given the potential handling problems if the cross feed valve was open.
I also seem to recall that the position of the fuel switches can be very hard to ascertain on the Lear 23-36 fuel panel. Something like a little yellow light when a valve is moving, but completely dark when it is not. Thus relying on the crew to verify a toggle switch position.
Just spitballing....
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Bolter
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Re: Lear 35 Crash at Teterboro

Post by Bolter »

2 comments. Lears use agreement lights for the cross feed & fuselage valves so you need to monitor the lights when you move the switch; otherwise, you may miss that the valve didn't open/close should a light be burnt out. There is a checklist should that happen &/or you get an imbalance. Lights added to indicate stby pump power as that is normally the issue that causes an imbalance (crew thinks they're off but still running). Takes a long time for fuel to trickle across if stby pumps are off/not powered - not a quick process to balance fuel at the best of times.
What can also happen is that the crew decides to "refill the bag" on descant because they have lots in the wings & it can take a while after landing (15+ minutes). If one of the stby pumps is weak, it can cause an imbalance. Max diff is ~600 lbs between tips, don't remember a limit for the wings but would be higher. IAC, autopilot will kick off when Inbalance gets too high as it can't trim the ailerons & force gets too high, but aircraft is still flyable - likely hit max aileron trim so best to speed up & get it balanced.
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linecrew
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Re: Lear 35 Crash at Teterboro

Post by linecrew »

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Cat Driver
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Re: Lear 35 Crash at Teterboro

Post by Cat Driver »

The NTSB sure are faster than Canada's TSB getting information out about accidents, aren't they.
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Re: Lear 35 Crash at Teterboro

Post by Old fella »

Cat Driver wrote:The NTSB sure are faster than Canada's TSB getting information out about accidents, aren't they.
I find in major accident reports there appears to be plenty of "fluff". In my view an example of such is the much discussed AC Halifax A320 accident, there were pages and pages of this sleep issue the aircraft captain suffered from, there were quotes in the report from the FAA, Australia and United Kingdom. However the report said this sleep issue wasn't linked to the accident so what was the purpose. I also find over abundance on airport and nav facilities almost quoting a complete CFS entry. As one TSB staffer told me few years ago they suffer(in his view) from a Military NDHQ style of report assessment/writing in which 100 pages is superior to 50 pages. I remember my TC days at HQ ANSR Planning and Requirements way back and the regurgitated/lengthly system plans that didn't say a lot and meant very little in the 200+page binder documents- most of the chaps there were DND.

Having said that I have much respect for the TSB investigative skills.
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Re: Lear 35 Crash at Teterboro

Post by Cat Driver »

Having said that I have much respect for the TSB investigative skills.
My experience with them was if they ask you for your input to an accident where the crew was killed if your answer does not fit their agenda your input will be ignored completely.

Quite frankly I have very little respect for them and I believe they are politically motivated more than fact motivated.
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Re: Lear 35 Crash at Teterboro

Post by rookiepilot »

Cat Driver wrote:
Having said that I have much respect for the TSB investigative skills.
My experience with them was if they ask you for your input to an accident where the crew was killed if your answer does not fit their agenda your input will be ignored completely.

Quite frankly I have very little respect for them and I believe they are politically motivated more than fact motivated.
I've learned when presenting and listening to others present -- less is usually more, for clarity.
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linecrew
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Re: Lear 35 Crash at Teterboro

Post by linecrew »

linecrew wrote:The NTSB synopsis is out:

https://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.avia ... 0533&key=1

Radar track data indicated that the flight did not start its right circling turn until it was less than 1 mile from the approach end of runway 6. According to TEB ATC, aircraft typically start the right turn at the final approach fix for runway 6, which is located 3.8 nm from the approach end of runway 6.
I've got no IFR time but this part of the report was troubling. Are there rules out there for how close in you can be to circle for another runway?
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