Halifax crash report coming Thursday

Topics related to accidents, incidents & over due aircraft should be placed in this forum.

Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore

Post Reply
User avatar
Old fella
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2394
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 7:04 am
Location: I'm retired. I don't want to'I don't have to and you can't make me.

Re: Halifax crash report coming Thursday

Post by Old fella »

Gilles Hudicourt wrote: Wed Dec 12, 2018 8:29 am
Old fella wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:31 pm Tell me something sir, have you corresponded with TSB to let them know in your infinite wisdom that you think as an airline pilot their final report in the AC crash in YHZ wasn’t up to the standard one would expect from such an Agency(your words), explaining of course the standards not met. You stated that “ I hope it will catch someone’s eye” well then, there is your chance.
I posted my thoughts about the Report in an article which I posted on LinkedIn. The Article Stats tell me that 8 people from the TSB read it and this Gentleman left the following explanation:

Branden Murdoch, P.Eng.
Aerospace Systems Engineer at Transportation Safety Board of Canada
Please read section 1.16.1 TSB laboratory reports. You'll see reference to engineering report LP061/2015 - DFDR [digital flight data recorder] Download and Analysis. This report should answer your questions and resolve your concerns.
Here is what that section of the report says:

1.16.1 TSB laboratory reports
The TSB completed the following laboratory reports in support of this investigation:

LP061/2015 - DFDR [digital flight data recorder] Download and Analysis
LP071/2015 - NVM [non-volatile memory] Recovery - EGPWS [enhanced ground proximity warning system]
LP072/2015 - NVM Recovery - CPAP
LP073/2015 - Site Survey Report
LP076/2015 - Coffee Maker Restraint Examination
LP086/2015 - Shoulder Harness Assembly Examination
LP094/2015 - Photo Collection
LP110/2015 - Analysis of Material Transfer
But the Analysis of the DFDR has not been made public by the TSB, so his comment just means, "trust us, we downloaded and analysed the data, it's all been looked at"
Ok, that’s fair enough. Their(TSB Engineer Lab) response suggests to me they stand by the final analysis which is their prerogative.
---------- ADS -----------
 
C.W.E.
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1262
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:22 pm

Re: Halifax crash report coming Thursday

Post by C.W.E. »

Ok, that’s fair enough. Their(TSB Engineer Lab) response suggests to me they stand by the final analysis which is their prerogative.
How about those of us who believe the TSB has a bias in flavor of Air Canada?

Could we be subject to some form of punishment by the government?
---------- ADS -----------
 
Gilles Hudicourt
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2227
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2012 5:51 am
Location: YUL

Re: Halifax crash report coming Thursday

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

Old fella wrote: Wed Dec 12, 2018 1:03 pm Ok, that’s fair enough. Their(TSB Engineer Lab) response suggests to me they stand by the final analysis which is their prerogative.
They are not a law firm or a lobby group. They are the TSB.

http://www.bst-tsb.gc.ca/eng/qui-about/ ... andate.asp
The Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board Act provides the legal framework that governs TSB activities. Our mandate is to advance transportation safety in the marine, pipeline, rail and air modes of transportation by conducting independent investigations, including public inquiries when necessary, into selected transportation occurrences in order to make findings as to their causes and contributing factors;
identifying safety deficiencies, as evidenced by transportation occurrences;
making recommendations designed to eliminate or reduce any such safety deficiencies; and
reporting publicly on our investigations and on the findings in relation thereto.
To instill confidence in the public regarding the transportation accident investigation process, it is essential that an investigating agency be independent and free from any conflicts of interest when investigating accidents, identifying safety deficiencies, and making safety recommendations. The TSB is an independent agency, separate from other government agencies and departments, that reports to Parliament through the President of the Queen's Privy Council for Canada and Minister of Intergovernmental and Northern Affairs and Internal Trade.
I am Airbus 330/320 qualified. This report has not instilled confidence in me. What are they hiding and why ?
---------- ADS -----------
 
CD
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2731
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2004 5:13 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Halifax crash report coming Thursday

Post by CD »

Have you considered requesting a copy of the lab report? I suspect that may be what was being suggested. I have reviewed associated reports that were referenced, but not included, in the final report from other investigative bodies in the past.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Old fella
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2394
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 7:04 am
Location: I'm retired. I don't want to'I don't have to and you can't make me.

Re: Halifax crash report coming Thursday

Post by Old fella »

C.W.E. wrote: Wed Dec 12, 2018 1:17 pm
Ok, that’s fair enough. Their(TSB Engineer Lab) response suggests to me they stand by the final analysis which is their prerogative.
How about those of us who believe the TSB has a bias in flavor of Air Canada?

Could we be subject to some form of punishment by the government?
Personally I don’t subscribe to the notion TSB has a favour bias towards AC nor any airline or the aviation industry in general for that matter. However others such as yourself see it differently and that is fine and you are certainly entitled to express that.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Old fella
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2394
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 7:04 am
Location: I'm retired. I don't want to'I don't have to and you can't make me.

Re: Halifax crash report coming Thursday

Post by Old fella »

Gilles Hudicourt wrote: Wed Dec 12, 2018 2:18 pm
Old fella wrote: Wed Dec 12, 2018 1:03 pm Ok, that’s fair enough. Their(TSB Engineer Lab) response suggests to me they stand by the final analysis which is their prerogative.
They are not a law firm or a lobby group. They are the TSB.

http://www.bst-tsb.gc.ca/eng/qui-about/ ... andate.asp
The Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board Act provides the legal framework that governs TSB activities. Our mandate is to advance transportation safety in the marine, pipeline, rail and air modes of transportation by conducting independent investigations, including public inquiries when necessary, into selected transportation occurrences in order to make findings as to their causes and contributing factors;
identifying safety deficiencies, as evidenced by transportation occurrences;
making recommendations designed to eliminate or reduce any such safety deficiencies; and
reporting publicly on our investigations and on the findings in relation thereto.
To instill confidence in the public regarding the transportation accident investigation process, it is essential that an investigating agency be independent and free from any conflicts of interest when investigating accidents, identifying safety deficiencies, and making safety recommendations. The TSB is an independent agency, separate from other government agencies and departments, that reports to Parliament through the President of the Queen's Privy Council for Canada and Minister of Intergovernmental and Northern Affairs and Internal Trade.
I am Airbus 330/320 qualified. This report has not instilled confidence in me. What are they hiding and why ?
You’re a qualified A330/320 pilot, I certainly have no doubt that you are. You lack confidence in the TSB final report on AC incident in Halifax few years back, well that is fine and you are very much entitled to express that. Amongst the many other qualified A330/320 pilots thorought the country perhaps some share your hypothesis, others may not who knows. I am not in a position to say either way. Question is, has the TSB made any amendments to their final investigation report since being publicly released because of items noted by individuals such as yourself. Finally, I am not convinced The Transportation Safety Board engages in a conspiracy to hide and more to the point, why.

I am done with this. Over and out!!!!
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Old fella
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2394
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 7:04 am
Location: I'm retired. I don't want to'I don't have to and you can't make me.

Re: Halifax crash report coming Thursday

Post by Old fella »

Deleted.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Last edited by Old fella on Wed Dec 12, 2018 9:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Old fella
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2394
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 7:04 am
Location: I'm retired. I don't want to'I don't have to and you can't make me.

Re: Halifax crash report coming Thursday

Post by Old fella »

Double post- deleted.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Old fella
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2394
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 7:04 am
Location: I'm retired. I don't want to'I don't have to and you can't make me.

Re: Halifax crash report coming Thursday

Post by Old fella »

double post deleted.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Old fella
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2394
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 7:04 am
Location: I'm retired. I don't want to'I don't have to and you can't make me.

Re: Halifax crash report coming Thursday

Post by Old fella »

...
---------- ADS -----------
 
C.W.E.
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1262
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:22 pm

Re: Halifax crash report coming Thursday

Post by C.W.E. »

My opinion is expressed from having personal face to face interaction with them old fella, which allows me to speak from experience.

How much one on one experience do you have with them?
---------- ADS -----------
 
altiplano
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5377
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 2:24 pm

Re: Halifax crash report coming Thursday

Post by altiplano »

C.W.E. wrote: Thu Dec 13, 2018 8:51 am My opinion is expressed from having personal face to face interaction with them old fella, which allows me to speak from experience.

How much one on one experience do you have with them?
Sounds like an unreasonable bias.

Clearly they aren't the same people involved in every instance, every investigation, or have you had personal interaction with the whole staff at the TSB?
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Old fella
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2394
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 7:04 am
Location: I'm retired. I don't want to'I don't have to and you can't make me.

Re: Halifax crash report coming Thursday

Post by Old fella »

C.W.E. wrote: Thu Dec 13, 2018 8:51 am My opinion is expressed from having personal face to face interaction with them old fella, which allows me to speak from experience.

How much one on one experience do you have with them?
I have in my TC days through System Safety as a Ministers Rep.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Old fella
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2394
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 7:04 am
Location: I'm retired. I don't want to'I don't have to and you can't make me.

Re: Halifax crash report coming Thursday

Post by Old fella »

altiplano wrote: Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:14 am
C.W.E. wrote: Thu Dec 13, 2018 8:51 am My opinion is expressed from having personal face to face interaction with them old fella, which allows me to speak from experience.

How much one on one experience do you have with them?
Sounds like an unreasonable bias.

Clearly they aren't the same people involved in every instance, every investigation, or have you had personal interaction with the whole staff at the TSB?
Indeed. That would have to include the six Regions + HQ level, one hell of a lot interacting.
:lol:
---------- ADS -----------
 
Cliff Jumper
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 180
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2015 8:22 am

Re: Halifax crash report coming Thursday

Post by Cliff Jumper »

Plus CWE is referring to an interaction he had 20+ years ago, and he presents it as being relevant.

I have a ham sandwich that is more relevant.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
EPR
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 520
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2004 1:38 am
Location: South of 60, finally!

Re: Halifax crash report coming Thursday

Post by EPR »

Back on topic...here is a "cut and paste", because it's all relevant on my thoughts.
Crew actions at & below MDA were very dangerous. I've read the final paragraphs of the report including the consequential actions by AC. What still seems to be missing is an SOP requirement to X-check ALT v DME during descent from FAF. They seem to have adopted most of TC's recommendations, but that one was not mentioned. It is very scary to read about the inside workings of AC & TC. The discrepancy between AC's FCOM & SOP manual were glaring, yet approved. That casts shadows on the quality of TC's oversight and true understanding of what they were approving; and AC's own in-house FLT Ops dept that they could produce two such differing documents. It also is scary that they could produce such lax SOP's for such a critical manoeuvre. Their whole philosophy seems useless compared to those we use in EU. One would naturally think that AC was of the same quality standard as all other national carriers in EU & USA. Apparently they operated well below. The airmanship mindset in FLT OPs is quite disturbing.
In EU there is an approach ban based upon VIS/RVR. In Canada they could even make an approach, in some circumstances, with a reported vis 50% of that charted?? They could continue below MDA with a call only of "LIGHTS"! What lights? It could be the parking lot?? They had no SOP to monitor the ALT v DME during descent towards the concrete stuff?? Astonishing. (And a friend on B767 tells me it's the same there and they don't use FPA). The captain is PF in bad weather, rather than monitored approach. (a matter of debate, I know). They had an SOP allowing them to continue below MDA if lights were seen in the belief that the runway would become more visible. OMG. There was no calculation of DA/MDA taking into account the length of the ALS, so that the height above the runway at MDA coincided with the visibility and lighting system. This can encourage press-onitis below MDA if a LIGHT is seen in the belief that more lights will become visible. Considering the harsh conditions that Canada can present I would have expected ultra-cautious procedures, even if that resulted in more Go-Around's or even diversions.

It was all an astonishing eye-opener, and if I read the conclusions correctly the vertical path monitoring by raw data is still not in SOP's. It does make one wonder about the thinking in FLT OPs & TC that this behavior could be promoted. It also make one wonder about the individual pilot's self survival instincts. The hairs on the back of my neck are very twitchy if nothing is seen at +100. To continue below MDA, still without the runway/full approach lights not in sight, would be beyond my courage. It's like driving down the road at a speed where the braking distance is greater than the visibility, in the hope that no other hind-brain is out there in such bad Wx.
One wonders what other scary gems are hidden in AC's SOP's. Is it a coincidence that their name is in the news a few times quite recently on what seem to be basic airmanship hiccups?
---------- ADS -----------
 
Keep the dirty side down.
Gilles Hudicourt
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2227
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2012 5:51 am
Location: YUL

Re: Halifax crash report coming Thursday

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

I mailed in an ATIP for the DFDR Analysis report. I hope it does not take several years to obtain.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Cliff Jumper
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 180
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2015 8:22 am

Re: Halifax crash report coming Thursday

Post by Cliff Jumper »

You could hope and speculate negatively, or you could read the ATIP rules.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Gilles Hudicourt
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2227
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2012 5:51 am
Location: YUL

Re: Halifax crash report coming Thursday

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

Cliff Jumper wrote: Fri Dec 14, 2018 4:12 pm You could hope and speculate negatively, or you could read the ATIP rules.
I have probably 30 ATIP requests under my belt so I know the ropes quite well. Several went to the Commissioner for complaint. You would be surprised how much these government people hide, often for obscure reasons. The weirdest things come back blacked out, as confidential. Sometime they drag it out over years hoping you will tire, and then you get a letter asking if you still want the information, with a little note stating that if you dont reply, the file will be closed. Especially when you touch embarrassing subjects for the government.

After the 2010 Earthquake in Haiti, National Defence sent troops, ships and helicopters to Haiti. Many C-17s and and C-130s flew back and forth, for months. I sent an ATIP asking how much DND had billed the Aid Money to Haiti (Foreign Affairs Canada) for all the logistics they provided. The reply : It's confidential......
---------- ADS -----------
 
Last edited by Gilles Hudicourt on Sat Dec 15, 2018 5:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
AuxBatOn
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3283
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:13 pm
Location: North America, sometimes

Re: Halifax crash report coming Thursday

Post by AuxBatOn »

Gilles, you are a real piece of work!!!
---------- ADS -----------
 
Going for the deck at corner
Post Reply

Return to “Accidents, Incidents & Overdue Aircraft”