Westwind

[AWOS]

https://saskatoon.ctvnews.ca/at-least-8 ... -1.3723411

[plhought]

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Unit on right completely mobile with a regular pintle hitch. Works best with a quad. Features heated holding tank for type 1 solution along with a combo Hotsy gasoline/kerosene heater and pressure washer for spray application. Fully OH&S compliant (with some mods to top deck not in this early picture). Worked great back in the day. Not sure if still used today.

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Fits in a Dash 8 and can be assembled on site with 4-5 guys. Probably would fit even easier in a ATR. No reason for operators to whine about expense of hauling complete de-ice equipment, and trying to get away with sketchy tall stairs and garden-sprayers on the 705 aircraft.

Companies need to put the effort and brain-power to change the sketchy minimal facilities in these remote communities.

[pelmet]

The ATR has been known to have flame outs if residual ice/snow has built up in the intake and the deicing system is turned on (there's a "boot" in the nacelle). The ice, etc blocks the airflow into the engine hence the flame-out.
A double flame-out has occurred in Canada but they were lucky and were taxiing for departure when it happened.

Air Nova had something similar happen in a Dash 8 and now the bottom of the Dash 8 intake has a piece of metal (almost looks like a small wing fence) to ensure the ice can't build into large enough pieces to block the airflow into the engine. In that case the nacelle had filled with snow and then someone put the intake plugs in. It's a pita to check if there's ice in there (stick your hand/arm into the bypass door).

I remember reading the Air Nova report. One of the engines re-lit because of the ignition setting. I did check the inlets of the PW100 on rare occasion because of this. It isn't particularly easy. Seem to remember seeing some minor pieces of ice attached in the throat of the inlet but no chunks on the bottom of the inlet. Something to consider looking at whenever there has been blowing wet snow/freezing rain, etc and the aircraft has been out for a while. Even if there were plugs installed, it may be a good idea to check as the Air Nova plugs blew out and then were re-installed some time later without the pilots knowing about that. Its called...a bit of paranoia.

[valleyboy]

Ok sorry it was ice on the dc3 it was frost. Dc3s done crash land under GTOW with 2 operating engines.

-- ah but they do -- as the boys on the south pole ice ???

It was not ice or frost in my opinion. The report from TSB ice was concluded because they found nothing else. Their findings were from elimination and not actual evidence. I was actually contacted by the TSB and they had nothing. They were even considering wind shear, which was likely closer than contaminated wings. I have my theories but like the TSB I can't prove them so they remain my own. I do know for a fact though the aircraft was clean.

Sorry for the drift but it seems the icing has become the ugly monster in the room. There are so many factors there is a possibility it wasn't icing at all or it was a minor contributing factor to a greater problem.

Absolutely icing and contaminated wings are bad but you also need to know your aircraft. The last few days we have been carrying visible rim ice, I've had it on the aircraft for 3 days but it has no effect on performance but you can see it and it's too damn cold to get rid of it. Spray it and you are below your fluid temperatures which would likely be a bigger contaminant than a trace of rime ice but ask most pilots and they would either not go flying or spray and go flying with congealed glycol on their aircraft and thinking they were clean wing -- While TC wants to eliminate all thought process from the flight deck that blind thinking might just hurt you some day.

[Victory]

The first thing they would do is get out on that lake and clean the frost off the wings though before the feds showed up.

[Donald]

Interesting hypothesis posted on PPRUNE, I'm also not an ATR pilot so I can't comment on the validity:

Don't fly ATR myself...

Sounds very like the shorts crash out of Edinburgh.

The crew turned on the engine heaters and opened the separator doors both together. Which caused a huge lumps of ice to go through both engines, both at the same time causing flame out together.

Don't know what the penalty is for icing on departure on the ATR but hey could have gone for icing off then turned it on as the gear came up.

Seems there is a rather large group of pilots that think this is acceptable not realising that the icing performance is required if your going to be in it before the end of the third phase.

If there is ice formed in the bottom of the intake and forms a lump and you put the heaters on, that just melts what is attaching it to the bottom and the whole lot lifts up and blocks the compressor.

I was always taught with engine controls to operate anti-ice or de-ice individually and wait to see what the effect was and then do the other engine.

We shall see what the investigation turns out

[GyvAir]

The first thing they would do is get out on that lake and clean the frost off the wings though before the feds showed up.

Of course, as there would be no audience at all for a plane, freshly gear up on the lake, a mile off a busy airport...

[oldncold]

? Balanced field length atr 42.300 -6'c. Gravel / compacted snow.

? Passengers said engines cut out. Would a well qualified crew do an. Emergency engine shut down once they realized the plane was going down to prevent a fire in the post impact .

Was the runway contaimated to the point that it affected the acceleration. And crew yarded it into the sky early because

[oldncold]

They didn't have sufficient room to stop at close to or at V1
? Exp of crew was it a green on green

? The wing of the atr is a laminar flow. So since ppl learned that laminar flow wings are super sensitive to any kind of contamination be it insects or ice that leaves this? How long was the turnaround on the ground. And was crew feeling ops pressure to get the plane out of there otherwise get lambasted if the y had to fly anonther

[oldncold]

Sorry about disjointed posts phone cutting in and out. Fly another plane up to get it deiced Just trying to get the thread back on track and ask intelligent questions so may learn useful info. That's all.

[dogfood]

Ok sorry it was ice on the dc3 it was frost. Dc3s done crash land under GTOW with 2 operating engines.

-- ah but they do -- as the boys on the south pole ice ???

It was not ice or frost in my opinion. The report from TSB ice was concluded because they found nothing else. Their findings were from elimination and not actual evidence. I was actually contacted by the TSB and they had nothing. They were even considering wind shear, which was likely closer than contaminated wings. I have my theories but like the TSB I can't prove them so they remain my own. I do know for a fact though the aircraft was clean.

Sorry for the drift but it seems the icing has become the ugly monster in the room. There are so many factors there is a possibility it wasn't icing at all or it was a minor contributing factor to a greater problem.

Absolutely icing and contaminated wings are bad but you also need to know your aircraft. The last few days we have been carrying visible rim ice, I've had it on the aircraft for 3 days but it has no effect on performance but you can see it and it's too damn cold to get rid of it. Spray it and you are below your fluid temperatures which would likely be a bigger contaminant than a trace of rime ice but ask most pilots and they would either not go flying or spray and go flying with congealed glycol on their aircraft and thinking they were clean wing -- While TC wants to eliminate all thought process from the flight deck that blind thinking might just hurt you some day.

Im curious now you mentioned you have your theory a couple times now.. care to share??

[Victory]

Of course, as there would be no audience at all for a plane, freshly gear up on the lake, a mile off a busy airport...

But the visibility was 1/2 mile

[valleyboy]

And you wonder why I don't elaborate - look at the stupid comments. I'm sure after sliding one in you would be thinking like that. This is one place where rational dialogue does not survive but the entertainment values is priceless.

Back to the thread my support is totally behind the crew. None of us should have to deal with a major accident. I have seen this too many times and while the silver lining here is no loss of life the impact on everyone is there for the rest of their lives.

I think a better study in this is why do pilots react the way they do to the misfortune of a brother in arms. Could it be that we as a group need a fuk up and someone to blame because the fear of a situation where there is no possible way to deal with it scares the hell out of us. We like to be in control and when you are not it's a pilot's worst nightmare.

[rookiepilot]

And you wonder why I don't elaborate - look at the stupid comments. I'm sure after sliding one in you would be thinking like that. This is one place where rational dialogue does not survive but the entertainment values is priceless.

Back to the thread my support is totally behind the crew. None of us should have to deal with a major accident. I have seen this too many times and while the silver lining here is no loss of life the impact on everyone is there for the rest of their lives.

I think a better study in this is why do pilots react the way they do to the misfortune of a brother in arms. Could it be that we as a group need a fuk up and someone to blame because the fear of a situation where there is no possible way to deal with it scares the hell out of us. We like to be in control and when you are not it's a pilot's worst nightmare.

Wisdom.

[Cat Driver]

There are basically two types of accidents.

(1) Preventable:

The accident was caused by poor decision making or poor airplane handling skills by the crew.

(2) Not preventable:

The accident was caused by something beyond the control of the crew such as mechanical or structural failure.

The want to know impulse of pilots is a natural response.

On the other hand we can just play Ostrich and wait for years for the TSB to issue their report.

And the chances are we will be no closer to knowing the true cause than the day it happened.

[North Shore]

And the chances are we will be no closer to knowing the true cause than the day it happened.

That's pure bullshit, Cat, and you know it. You're saying that in over 50% of the cases, the TSB gets it wrong? (Compared to a bunch of armchair experts who haven't been to the scene, and who, in most cases, were 100s, if not 1000s of miles away from where the accident occurred..)

[Cat Driver]

That's pure bullshit, Cat, and you know it. You're saying that in over 50% of the cases, the TSB gets it wrong?

Where did I say in over 50% of the cases they get it wrong?

I personally do not trust their reports from my own personal experience with them.

It was my experience that they can politically motivated and will tailor their final report to fit a political agenda.

I am well aware you are a moderator here and that does not in the least concern me because if you wish to make an issue of my opinion I am willing to relate my experience with them in an investigation of a fatal accident they interrogated me about and then completely disregarded my testimony.

Sure their reports can be valid, but they are not beyond colouring outside of the lines at times.

Remember I am well aware of the laws of liable and I am not stupid enough to get caught in that trap.

So bottom line I personally do not trust their reports, because of my own experience with them.

[Illya Kuryakin]

And the chances are we will be no closer to knowing the true cause than the day it happened.

That's pure bullshit, Cat, and you know it. You're saying that in over 50% of the cases, the TSB gets it wrong? (Compared to a bunch of armchair experts who haven't been to the scene, and who, in most cases, were 100s, if not 1000s of miles away from where the accident occurred..)

Hey North Shore, the issues I have with TSB reports is the length of time they often take to state the obvious. Obviously, here on avcanada, we speculate every time there’s a mishap. Out on a limb I go by stating the gang here often have it figured out within a page or two of speculation.....2-3 years ahead of TSB. Our neighbors to the south, the NTSB, often releases thoughts on accident causes as they become apparent, not waiting for the finished product hits the press. This often gives the industry a “heads up” and perhaps prevents replays through education. Our TSB are ostriches.
Illya

[pelmet]

Photos of the crash show flaps are still set at 15 degrees.

You might be looking at the wrong photos.

https://cdni.rt.com/files/oldfiles/news ... men.si.jpg

My advice still stands. If somehow caught in a situation like this, retract flaps cautiously.

"At 01:34:00 at height 640 ft and speed of 139 kt the flaps retraction was started. At 01:34:08 after the retraction had been completed, at 690 ft and at a speed of 150 kt uncommanded development of right bank started. At 01:34:10 the A/P was disengaged. The bank angle reached around 40° to the right within 3 s and after that was counteracted by ailerons and rudder deflection."

https://reports.aviation-safety.net/201 ... VP-BYZ.pdf

Chris was stating that westwinds flaps are still set in the picture, meaning that the accident you brought up about retraction, has no validity to this accident.

Thanks,

I misunderstood. However, it is still good information to keep in mind.

[co-joe]

I see a machine on its wheels largely intact and all survived. I'd just like to say whatever the investigation turns up you know these boys did their best to save it. You know they didn't stop flying till every last piece stopped moving, and 25 people are alive because of that.

If the account on TV by that Dene guy that the engines both quit turns out to be accurate, then you know this was a pilot's worst nightmare scenario. I sure wouldn't want to operate a 30 000 Lb turboprop out of 3800' of gravel in bad wx, but that's the job, and that's what they do. Margin for error is small. Luckily the trees were small too.

I hope all the good people at Westwind are able to come through this ok and the operation gets safer because of it.