Westwind
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore
- HansDietrich
- Rank 6
- Posts: 453
- Joined: Sun Feb 07, 2016 9:33 am
Re: Westwind
Sad news indeed.
While a lot of us are trying to be professional and not point fingers, especially so early (into the investigation), those of us with some experience and knowledge of how "things are done in the North" can't help but think that a lot of corners are cut on a daily basis. We've seen it, we've done it and most of us were lucky enough to never have a repercussion.
If in fact the crew did something deliberately wrong, I would say the company will "feed them to the dogs" and try to wash their hands of any responsibility. Personally, I think that the top managers at WestWind should all be criminally charged, if this does indeed prove some company wide negligence. I want to see these top individuals behind bars, so they set an example to the rest of them (bosses) that it's NOT okay bully, push or punish crews that say NO.
It's easy to sit behind the keyboard and say "They should have said no". "They should have blah blah blah blah blah..." I remember being in front of my chief pilot a few times trying to explain why I "refused" to go somewhere and getting shit for it. I also remember being a chicken and saying yes to something I didn't want to do.
You learn to say NO with experience. You learn to say NO by having that experience and knowing that another job awaits. You really learn to say NO when you have little ones at home waiting for you and then you realize that nothing is more important than your life.
Someone's signature here caught my eye. I loved it. It said "Ass. License. Job... in that order"
While a lot of us are trying to be professional and not point fingers, especially so early (into the investigation), those of us with some experience and knowledge of how "things are done in the North" can't help but think that a lot of corners are cut on a daily basis. We've seen it, we've done it and most of us were lucky enough to never have a repercussion.
If in fact the crew did something deliberately wrong, I would say the company will "feed them to the dogs" and try to wash their hands of any responsibility. Personally, I think that the top managers at WestWind should all be criminally charged, if this does indeed prove some company wide negligence. I want to see these top individuals behind bars, so they set an example to the rest of them (bosses) that it's NOT okay bully, push or punish crews that say NO.
It's easy to sit behind the keyboard and say "They should have said no". "They should have blah blah blah blah blah..." I remember being in front of my chief pilot a few times trying to explain why I "refused" to go somewhere and getting shit for it. I also remember being a chicken and saying yes to something I didn't want to do.
You learn to say NO with experience. You learn to say NO by having that experience and knowing that another job awaits. You really learn to say NO when you have little ones at home waiting for you and then you realize that nothing is more important than your life.
Someone's signature here caught my eye. I loved it. It said "Ass. License. Job... in that order"
Das ist mir wurst...
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- Rank 3
- Posts: 108
- Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:20 am
Re: Westwind
Hi, this is my first post here on this website. I have been coming here for the last 5 years or so and I decided to finally sign up. I am a captain at one of the 703 operators up north, cant mention name sorry.
I wanted to respond to the statement about " management putting the pressure on the pilots ". Well at least where I work, this is not true. Every time that I delay or cancel a flight Im never questioned by management. As long as I have a valid reason ( weather, mechanical, etc.) we are on the same page. Ive been at my company for over 2 years now and I never felt any pressure to "go get it done". No means No and it should just be that way. If management does pressure you to do something dangerous, then it's probably best to quit and go work at another operator. Im sure everyone out there knows who has a good or bad rep for safety.
Thats all I would like to say for now. Please fly safe and arrive alive.
I wanted to respond to the statement about " management putting the pressure on the pilots ". Well at least where I work, this is not true. Every time that I delay or cancel a flight Im never questioned by management. As long as I have a valid reason ( weather, mechanical, etc.) we are on the same page. Ive been at my company for over 2 years now and I never felt any pressure to "go get it done". No means No and it should just be that way. If management does pressure you to do something dangerous, then it's probably best to quit and go work at another operator. Im sure everyone out there knows who has a good or bad rep for safety.
Thats all I would like to say for now. Please fly safe and arrive alive.
- rookiepilot
- Rank 11
- Posts: 4410
- Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:50 pm
Re: Westwind
So it's always managements fault if someone doesn't use all of the runway? (see above) Just curious how it all works.HansDietrich wrote: ↑Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:59 pm Sad news indeed.
While a lot of us are trying to be professional and not point fingers, especially so early (into the investigation), those of us with some experience and knowledge of how "things are done in the North" can't help but think that a lot of corners are cut on a daily basis. We've seen it, we've done it and most of us were lucky enough to never have a repercussion.
If in fact the crew did something deliberately wrong, I would say the company will "feed them to the dogs" and try to wash their hands of any responsibility. Personally, I think that the top managers at WestWind should all be criminally charged, if this does indeed prove some company wide negligence. I want to see these top individuals behind bars, so they set an example to the rest of them (bosses) that it's NOT okay bully, push or punish crews that say NO.
It's easy to sit behind the keyboard and say "They should have said no". "They should have blah blah blah blah blah..." I remember being in front of my chief pilot a few times trying to explain why I "refused" to go somewhere and getting shit for it. I also remember being a chicken and saying yes to something I didn't want to do.
You learn to say NO with experience. You learn to say NO by having that experience and knowing that another job awaits. You really learn to say NO when you have little ones at home waiting for you and then you realize that nothing is more important than your life.
Someone's signature here caught my eye. I loved it. It said "Ass. License. Job... in that order"
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- Rank 10
- Posts: 2227
- Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2012 5:51 am
- Location: YUL
Re: Westwind
Performance :
The weather:
The Regulations:
The company procedures :
The Collective Agreements :
Common sense :
Experience :
Passenger expectations :
Passenger Safety :
Passenger comfort :
Financial considerations:
Company Image:
Crew fatigue:
Crew Health:
Peer pressure :
Company culture :
Personal Considerations:
Are all things that a crew have to consider and balance when making a decision. They often conflict. Sometimes two opposite decisions both have consequences.
This is why there is an investigation. The TSB will look into all of that, and hopefully they will come up with a plausible explanation, not only for the crash, but also for any decision process that would have had been a contributing factor to the crash.....
The weather:
The Regulations:
The company procedures :
The Collective Agreements :
Common sense :
Experience :
Passenger expectations :
Passenger Safety :
Passenger comfort :
Financial considerations:
Company Image:
Crew fatigue:
Crew Health:
Peer pressure :
Company culture :
Personal Considerations:
Are all things that a crew have to consider and balance when making a decision. They often conflict. Sometimes two opposite decisions both have consequences.
This is why there is an investigation. The TSB will look into all of that, and hopefully they will come up with a plausible explanation, not only for the crash, but also for any decision process that would have had been a contributing factor to the crash.....
- HansDietrich
- Rank 6
- Posts: 453
- Joined: Sun Feb 07, 2016 9:33 am
Re: Westwind
How exactly did you come up to that conclusion from what I have written? Let me make it more clear to you in case you didn't understand. My English is a little off sometimes.rookiepilot wrote: ↑Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:26 amSo it's always managements fault if someone doesn't use all of the runway? (see above) Just curious how it all works.
Cutting corners in Northern Canada is the norm. It's fact, we've seen it we've done it. Everyone! Worst of all, it's expected by managers that their crews and workers cut corners to "Get'er done". It's all in the interest of making a buck.
Traditionally, when an accident occurs, it's only the fight crew that get the wrath of it, while management gets to wash their dirty little hands. The accountable executives, Chief Pilots and Ops Managers need to be there with them, behind the "proverbial firing squad".
Das ist mir wurst...
Re: Westwind
***********************************************************************************atphat wrote: ↑Wed Dec 27, 2017 7:05 pm
For the ATR drivers out there. Could you even be overweight with 22 pax?
Someone else answered.
With freight and fuel, sure.
If you read these forums and want to confirm what any given poster really knows about flying the answers will eventually be found by their responses to other posts.
The above is the perfect example, if you make a judgement of the posters knowledge based on their user name atphat would appear to be a pilot.
If you make a judgement based on their posts then reading the above atphat is likely not a pilot.
Based on that question If he/she is a working pilot then in my personal opinion the industry truly has slipped into desperation for someone to operate their airplanes.
Re: Westwind
Rules are pretty black and white. Step outside the box and something happens you will hang. That’s the system we work in.
On a side note many are saying how they didn’t use the whole runway. I’m assuming any pilot operating a 705 aircraft does the appropriate WAT data before every departure. If the numbers work it becomes a moot point, whether or not you have personal opinions on intersection take offs.
On a side note many are saying how they didn’t use the whole runway. I’m assuming any pilot operating a 705 aircraft does the appropriate WAT data before every departure. If the numbers work it becomes a moot point, whether or not you have personal opinions on intersection take offs.
Re: Westwind
Lol. Ok. WW never carried freight as far as I know. My airplane with less than half the pax and full of fuel is no where near overweight. That’s kind of how big planes work.C.W.E. wrote: ↑Thu Dec 28, 2017 9:23 am***********************************************************************************atphat wrote: ↑Wed Dec 27, 2017 7:05 pm
For the ATR drivers out there. Could you even be overweight with 22 pax?
Someone else answered.
With freight and fuel, sure.
If you read these forums and want to confirm what any given poster really knows about flying the answers will eventually be found by their responses to other posts.
The above is the perfect example, if you make a judgement of the posters knowledge based on their user name atphat would appear to be a pilot.
If you make a judgement based on their posts then reading the above atphat is likely not a pilot.
Based on that question If he/she is a working pilot then in my personal opinion the industry truly has slipped into desperation for someone to operate their airplanes.
Re: Westwind
Big airplanes do not carry freight as well as passengers?My airplane with less than half the pax and full of fuel is no where near overweight. That’s kind of how big planes work.
- rookiepilot
- Rank 11
- Posts: 4410
- Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:50 pm
Re: Westwind
Gotcha.HansDietrich wrote: ↑Thu Dec 28, 2017 9:08 am
Traditionally, when an accident occurs, it's only the fight crew that get the wrath of it, while management gets to wash their dirty little hands. The accountable executives, Chief Pilots and Ops Managers need to be there with them, behind the "proverbial firing squad".
Lots of stories, yes, about northern stuff. Not disputing that.
However -----
So -- just so I understand, it is expected to show respect here, and never speculate about a flight crews actions in an accident until a report comes out.
Guess that doesn't apply to management. Fair game, I guess. Easier for every accident, for people to say "they made me do it". Kinda like life, actually.
Is there any Specific evidence management actions contributed to this Specific accident?
Re: Westwind
I was told when traveling out of San Jose CR to YYZ on passes that even though the flight may be showing empty seats you may still not get on. Apparently sometimes they are weight restricted due to carrying quit a bit of cargo
Re: Westwind
Re: Westwind
Pineapples out of Hawaii and Takeoff performance/DA limits out of most places in South America at high elevation. The flights can show 50+ open seats and be at max gross, even on a 763.
In twenty years time when your kids ask how you got into flying you want to be able to say "work and determination" not "I just kept taking money from your grandparents for type ratings until someone was stupid enough to give me a job"
Re: Westwind
One thing for sure about the pilot group it is never boring reading all the different thoughts or lack thereof they post on these forums.
There seems to be real blurring of what a lot of things mean to individual posters here, like what ATP means or how little ATP means as far as flying goes.
And then there is the question of what is a big airplane is and on and on it goes.
These forums help to fill in hours that otherwise would be boring.
If I read these posts long enough will I become a real pilot?
There seems to be real blurring of what a lot of things mean to individual posters here, like what ATP means or how little ATP means as far as flying goes.
And then there is the question of what is a big airplane is and on and on it goes.
These forums help to fill in hours that otherwise would be boring.
If I read these posts long enough will I become a real pilot?
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- Rank 3
- Posts: 108
- Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:20 am
Re: Westwind
I agree and disagree on what should we as a flight crew should bring with us to the flight deck.
Performance : Agree
The weather: Agree
The Regulations: Agree
The company procedures : Agree
The Collective Agreements : Agree and Disagree - It all depends
Common sense : Agree
Experience : Agree
Passenger expectations : Most of the time, but not always possible
Passenger Safety : Absolutely
Passenger comfort : Not a priority over safety but a consideration for sure
Financial considerations: Disagree. Flight crew should not have to think about it when it comes to safety. Maybe a last priority among other things if there is time.
Company Image: Agree
Crew fatigue: Agree and a very important one
Crew Health: Agree
Peer pressure : Ignore it and you will be safe. Don't let others get you in trouble. Just because they can do it doesn't mean you have to.
Company culture : Agree.
Personal Considerations: Besides safety/emergency considerations, keep personal considerations outside the flight deck. I could care less if you have to get home fast because you hate your job.
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- Rank Moderator
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- Location: Straight outta Dundarave...
Re: Westwind
They'd have to be hugely overweight, and really short to make weight a factor, IMHO. Which, I think brings the discussion back to wing contamination, or (partial) power lossDonald wrote: ↑Wed Dec 27, 2017 7:46 pm From a friend of a friend, they were overweight and didn't use the whole runway.
Yet to be determined if ground/air icing was a contributing factor.
Explains the "lack of company oversight". Also makes it obvious the pilots will be hung out to dry and the company won't be standing behind them.
Good luck.
Say, what's that mountain goat doing up here in the mist?
Happiness is V1 at Thompson!
Ass, Licence, Job. In that order.
Happiness is V1 at Thompson!
Ass, Licence, Job. In that order.
Re: Westwind
If it was a partial power loss they would know by now and make it public.
Re: Westwind
Deleted.
Last edited by tps8903 on Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Westwind
wow. Of course big airplanes carry freight. San Jose has more to do with prevailing winds and mountainous terrain than cargo....for what it's worth. I've seen the WW ATR around. It's pretty much an all pax operation....at least it used to be, it's why it was so desired. Hence my question.
Re: Westwind
O.K. if they are large assumptions would you educate me?Both of those are pretty large assumptions.
If they had a partial power loss why did the crew not report the partial power loss after the accident?
If the partial power loss occurred after they were airborne would they not want that to be public knowledge rather than people wondering if they chose to take off with contaminated wings?