Westwind

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J31
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Re: Westwind

Post by J31 »

Meatservo wrote: Sun Feb 17, 2019 10:28 am This doesn't need to be a black-and-white issue. So the aerodrome is not equipped for de-icing. The majority of the time, you can go in and out of there without a hassle. The one time you do land there and the aircraft does happen to get contaminated while it's sitting there, and it's not something you can reasonably deal with using a ladder and broom or whatever, THAT'S when you call the boss. Toss it into his lap. Don't tell him to go @#$! himself or anything like that. You might be spending the night in Stoney Rapids or whatever. Learn to accept that eventuality. But phone the boss and say something like, "Uh hey chief, there's a bit of a problem here- the plane's covered in snow/freezing drizzle/whatever and we're not able to deal with it with the stuff on hand. What do you want us to do?" Sure it takes some balls to tell the passengers they're not taking off, and maybe you're in for an uncomfortable night as well. But the squeaky wheel DOES get the grease, eventually. You just have to know how to squeak. The kind of squeaking where you toss the ball into management's court and make it clear, without having to say it out loud, that the time has come to deal with this issue. "This plane can't fly. It's covered in ice". It's no different than having an engine that won't start or a door that won't shut. "This plane's fucked. It won't fly. I need some help up here"...Hey, they might say something like "You get your ass back in that goddamn airplane and come home right now" ... THAT'S when you tell him to go @#$! himself. But I bet it won't come to that. If it does, document it. There's ways of squeaking and rocking that are perfectly reasonable and that force the other party into either dealing with it or exposing themselves. Don't make THEIR attitude into YOUR attitude. It takes work but you can stick up for what's right without resorting to being the kind of guy who marches into the office and puts his hands on his hips and makes grand pronouncements like "I REFUSE TO DO THIS" or "I REFUSE TO DO THAT". That's not necessary.
Some very good advice!
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smashmonkey
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Re: Westwind

Post by smashmonkey »

HO Driver wrote: Sun Feb 17, 2019 2:05 am
C.W.E. wrote: Sat Feb 16, 2019 8:54 am
That being said, your post would suggest captains should've marched into the CP's office and say they refuse to fly to ZFD until they upgrade the deicing equipment. Care to take a guess at how that would've played out? :lol:
The answer to that is simple.

The flight would not go until the safety issues were resolved.

And if the company refused to solve it then any pilot who is a professional would quit.
I totally agree, but in a perfect world we all know that just doesn't happen. If you quit every time a company didn't change what you felt they needed to change, you'd be that pilot with 25+ companies on his/her resume. Good luck finding decent job at a reputable company, they WILL ask you why you changed jobs so often if you manage to even get an interview. You're automatically labelled an trouble maker or a boat rocker and companies won't even give your resume a second look because they don't want to deal with a "right fighter". Guaranteed!
If you have a good amount of hours in your logbook they may overlook your job history but if you're fairly low time, it's a tough position to be in. You'd better hope you have a wife with a good job or have the ability to live at your parent's house because it'll be a grind to find work with a decent company. The squeaky wheel doesn't get the good jobs or in some cases the upgrade to captain. I know,it's wrong on every level but it's the way it is in this industry.
Most pilots have bills and student loans to pay back and most can't be out of work to fight over an issue that the company will say is legal.

Questions:
1) Do you think that all the professional pilots in Sask. who operate into ZFD (and similar airports throughout Northern Canada) in winter should've told their respective companies they flat out refuse to go there till the deicing equipment is upgraded?

2) Why do you think so many professional pilots still go operate in these airports safely during winter knowing full well that the equipment is insufficient? Are they all "unprofessional" for doing so?

Look, we are all happy for you that you've had a very successful career being able to tell employers to GFT at the first sign of anything unsafe but let's get real, a huge majority of pilots are not like you. You're a rarity.
It's not black and white. It's all about assessing risk and making safe decisions based on the information and tools you have at hand, as I said before. Choose your battles.

The pilots flying were senior pilots with a union to protect them! Who should speak up then?
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Re: Westwind

Post by HO Driver »

The TSB report should be out soon I'd assume? It's been almost 2 years since the crash!
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trey kule
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Re: Westwind

Post by trey kule »

Well HO, I just reread your response to CWE.

You are, of course, correct. Pilots who report safety issues would end up with 25 employers on their resumes . I am not sure where the 25 came from but who am I to question your numbers when to do so would put your claim in dispute. No one wants to be labelled a troublemaker.

But I have to wonder how the crew of the aircraft has made out since the accident.
No 25 jobs on their resumes, nope. They are not troublemakers. Consummate professionals and team players (or gang members depending on your perspective). They both flying with the majors now?

I gotta tell you. I would rather get fired, than end up sitting in a crumpled cockpit and being responsible for someone’s death.

Roll the dice kids. Snake eyes will never turn up.
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Re: Westwind

Post by oldncold »

all one needs to remember is the humbolt broncos hockey bus crash. driver. got 8yrs in prison. in a precedent setting case for 16 counts of negligent homicide causing death. there was. just a moment of inattention. no malicious intent. that case will be use used as a barometer for future cases including aviation.

Canada has moved away from the common law system towards tort law of USA system. so even if you survive the court you may be totally finacially
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Re: Westwind

Post by oldncold »

finish previous post > you more than likely ruined financially forever .
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cncpc
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Re: Westwind

Post by cncpc »

oldncold wrote: Sun Nov 17, 2019 11:24 am all one needs to remember is the humbolt broncos hockey bus crash. driver. got 8yrs in prison. in a precedent setting case for 16 counts of negligent homicide causing death. there was. just a moment of inattention. no malicious intent. that case will be use used as a barometer for future cases including aviation.

Canada has moved away from the common law system towards tort law of USA system. so even if you survive the court you may be totally finacially
A small but important point...tort law is part of the common law system, everywhere in systems which descend from British law, which includes the US. Negligence and gross negligence, civil fraud, breach of contract, and on and on, are all torts, or wrongs done by someone to someone else, and none of which are defined by any legislative body. All torts are defined in prior, and often very old, decisions of judges in the past.

Canada is the same as the US in terms of what the "titles" of torts are. Our courts follow theirs, and theirs follow ours. What differs is the amount of damages.

The bus driver in Humbolt was prosecuted under the Criminal Code. Negligent homicide is an offense laid out by Parliament in that Code. The Criminal Code is not common law, although it not being a complete code in the true civil law sense, judges do make common law, (establish precedents) in dealing with what the Code means.
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Re: Westwind

Post by tsgas »

cncpc wrote: Sun Nov 17, 2019 12:04 pm
oldncold wrote: Sun Nov 17, 2019 11:24 am all one needs to remember is the humbolt broncos hockey bus crash. driver. got 8yrs in prison. in a precedent setting case for 16 counts of negligent homicide causing death. there was. just a moment of inattention. no malicious intent. that case will be use used as a barometer for future cases including aviation.

Canada has moved away from the common law system towards tort law of USA system. so even if you survive the court you may be totally finacially
A small but important point...tort law is part of the common law system, everywhere in systems which descend from British law, which includes the US. Negligence and gross negligence, civil fraud, breach of contract, and on and on, are all torts, or wrongs done by someone to someone else, and none of which are defined by any legislative body. All torts are defined in prior, and often very old, decisions of judges in the past.

Canada is the same as the US in terms of what the "titles" of torts are. Our courts follow theirs, and theirs follow ours. What differs is the amount of damages.

The bus driver in Humbolt was prosecuted under the Criminal Code. Negligent homicide is an offense laid out by Parliament in that Code. The Criminal Code is not common law, although it not being a complete code in the true civil law sense, judges do make common law, (establish precedents) in dealing with what the Code means.
The USA has the worst Tort Lawsuits in the World. Even if you win in the US , you are still stuck with horrendous legal fees, that you have to pay.
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Re: Westwind

Post by HO Driver »

It's been over 2 years and 4 months since the Westwind ATR accident and there has yet to be a report published, it appears to be stuck in the "report" phase. Both crew survived as did the FDR and CVR. Whats the hold up!?? Come on TSB do your fricken job!
I can only assume the report phase gives the incompetent managers an opportunity to read the interim report and point fingers at everyone but themselves?
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Re: Westwind

Post by valleyboy »

There are protocols they follow when the report is complete. All parties involved must receive and approve the report. Reports have to be translated into any language that is native to anyone involved as well, not just French and English and you can see the issues when it comes to northern communities. Depending on the number of people directly concerned getting the approvals back can be time consuming, especially if there are the possibility of civil suites.

In reality, especially in present times there is no real limit to time required to publish. Accuracy and the real cause is the mandate. So, us as john-q-public we have no control over time for public release, after all, the safety issues have been addressed long ago in the initial stages of the investigation. Does it really matter to the general public how long it takes.
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goingnowherefast
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Re: Westwind

Post by goingnowherefast »

It's a lot easier to quote a published TSB report than to talk about rumours.
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Re: Westwind

Post by valleyboy »

It's a lot easier to quote a published TSB report than to talk about rumours.
I'm not sure the point you are trying to make but yes I agree and waiting for the report no matter how long gives you the TSB findings. The statement is also mute since the speculation starts with in minutes of the event long before any investigation even starts.
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Re: Westwind

Post by HO Driver »

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatoo ... -1.5664631

Expert says it's 'not acceptable' TSB hasn't finished report on cause of 2017 Fond-du-Lac plane crash


Investigators say it's a complex probe with many factors to consider
Guy Quenneville · CBC News · Posted: Jul 29, 2020 4:00 AM CT | Last Updated: July 29
A West Wind Aviation passenger plane crashed near Fond-du-Lac, Sask., shortly after takeoff in December 2017. One passenger died in hospital two weeks later. (Transportation Safety Board of Canada)

It's been two and a half years since a passenger plane plummeted near the northern Saskatchewan community of Fond-du-Lac and people are asking why the Transportation Safety Board of Canada (TSB) still hasn't publicly announced the cause of the crash.

"I basically have heard what you've heard: not a whole lot," said Fond du Lac Denesuline First Nation Chief Louis Mercredi, adding that he's concerned about the holdup.

"We all need to hear what really caused the plane to go down."

A West Wind Aviation twin-turboprop plane crashed near the fly-in community's airport shortly after takeoff on the evening of Dec. 13, 2017.

Ten people on board were seriously injured. One of them died in hospital two weeks after the crash. Several passengers soon filed a class-action lawsuit against the Saskatoon-based airline.

The TSB, which investigates Canadian plane crashes, said it's still working on its report — despite having entered the reporting phase in mid-2018.

"It is a complex investigation with many factors to consider and the investigation team must take the time necessary to complete its work," TSB spokesperson Chris Krepski said on Monday, acknowledging that it "seems like a long time."
Long past target deadline

Initially led by longtime TSB investigator David Ross (until he retired earlier this year), the West Wind probe is what the TSB calls a "class 2 investigation." According to the TSB's website, class 2 investigations are generally completed within about one year and eight months.

Krepski said that timeline is a target. When asked what is causing the delay in the Fond-du-Lac case, he said he could not provide specifics about an active investigation.

John Williams, a former superintendent with Transport Canada (which has assisted the TSB in its investigation), said the delay is "not acceptable at all."

"Trust me: nobody's been working for two years on that crash. They've got other things to do," Williams said.

The TSB website lists 108 other air plane crashes that happened after the Fond-du-Lac crash. A third of those investigations remain active, while the rest have been completed.
Retired Transport Canada superintendent John Williams says it's an "open and shut case" of ice contamination. (CBC)
An 'open and shut case': expert

Williams called the West Wind investigation an "open and shut case" based on the information the TSB has put out so far.

"I just can't believe that [the TSB] haven't given out the report," he said.

According to the TSB, West Wind crew members did not de-ice the plane even though the plane had ice on its wings. The clouds above Fond-du-Lac that day contained patches of rough ice.

"Conducting a takeoff with contaminants adhering to aircraft critical surfaces ... can lead to difficulty controlling the aircraft or to a loss of control and collision with terrain," the TSB said.

Investigators have ruled out other factors such as engine failure, unqualified flight staff or an overweight plane.

Williams pointed to ice contamination as the overwhelmingly likely cause of the crash.

"It's not debatable, really," he said. "It's like, 'Your airplane crashed because you attempted to fly in icing conditions.' There's not an aircraft certified in Canada to take off with any ice on the wings."

In December 2018 — one year after the crash — the TSB called on Transport Canada to work with airlines to improve de-icing procedures in remote airports across Canada.

The recommendation came after the TSB found limited de-icing equipment at the Fond-du-Lac airport. Worse, a TSB poll of remote pilots found that almost 40 per cent of pilots are rarely or never able to have their planes de-iced at remote airports.

'This is not a small problem': TSB's Fond-du-Lac investigation finds planes often aren't de-iced

In response, West Wind said it had installed "enhanced de-icing equipment" across its northern operations.

TSB officials did not comment on the cause of the Fond-du-Lac crash at the time.
'We have heard nothing'

Exactly when the cause will be publicly disclosed remains unclear.

At some point in the TSB's reporting process, the TSB drafts a confidential version of its report and shares it with the company involved in the crash.

"They then have the opportunity to dispute or correct information they believe to be incorrect," says the TSB website. "The board considers all representations before approving the final report, which is subsequently released to the public."

Tracy Young-McLean, West Wind's vice president of human resources, said the company has yet to receive any report from the TSB.

"We have heard nothing. We don't know why they have not issued their report," she said.
This flow chart outlines the TSB's multi-step investigative process. (TSB)

Tony Merchant, the Regina-based lawyer representing passengers in the class-action lawsuit, said he's not waiting on the investigation and is hopeful a class-action certification hearing will happen in the next six months.

Passengers in Fond-du-Lac plane crash file class-action suit against airline

Still, Merchant said he is also puzzled by how long the TSB's work is taking, calling it "unusual, verging on the bizarre."

"We then become suspicious that there's something far more significant involved and that's the reason for this unusual delay," he said.
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Re: Westwind

Post by pelmet »

Now would be a good time for the head of the TSB to change the rule requiring all of us to wait for a translation into a second language before releasing the report.....or satisfy the public that this does not cause a delay.
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Re: Westwind

Post by Heliian »

HO Driver wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 11:12 pm .......
Still, Merchant said he is also puzzled by how long the TSB's work is taking, calling it "unusual, verging on the bizarre."

"We then become suspicious that there's something far more significant involved and that's the reason for this unusual delay," he said.
No, it means there is zero to be gleaned from a report and doesn't present an immediate safety risk.

The article itself states what the cause was, everyone has recompiled with the regulations and hopefully it won't happen again.

I still think the ATR is a cheap compromise of an airplane.
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Re: Westwind

Post by GARRETT »

Heliian wrote: Mon Aug 10, 2020 2:34 pm
I still think the ATR is a cheap compromise of an airplane.
Heliian, have you flown the ATR? I was just wondering why you would have such a strong opinion about this aircraft.
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goingnowherefast
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Re: Westwind

Post by goingnowherefast »

I'm wondering if they're looking beyond this accident and digging deep into the northern icing culture. Do for the north what the Dryden Inquiry did for southern Canada. They did that survey after-all.

Everyone knows planes flying in the north fly with a different interpretation of the regs, and it's not just icing...
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Re: Westwind

Post by leftoftrack »

goingnowherefast wrote: Thu Aug 13, 2020 6:31 pm I'm wondering if they're looking beyond this accident and digging deep into the northern icing culture. Do for the north what the Dryden Inquiry did for southern Canada. They did that survey after-all.

Everyone knows planes flying in the north fly with a different interpretation of the regs, and it's not just icing...
first rule of flight club, no one talks about flight club
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Re: Westwind

Post by pelmet »

If TC and the TSB are interested in some of the murkier details of flying up north, they can ask any one of their own employees who used to work up north for first hand information. If the answers are honest, they will find that most participated to some extent.
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trey kule
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Re: Westwind

Post by trey kule »

I wonder if TSB considered black hole affect rather than only icing.
Their focus seemed a bit tunnel like, or maybe they looked at it and felt it was not necessary to discuss. Maybe it was an opportunity for TSB to showcase icing dangers and companies rather weak prevention methods,
I understand both front crew survived so they could maybe shed light on that.
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