Westwind

[phillyfan]

"Regnier added the TSB will take its time to conduct a thorough investigation, which may mean it could be a year or so before a final report is released.
"If we do uncover any serious safety deficiencies during the course of the investigation, we're not going to wait — we'll report on those publicly."

I'm sure all the Avcanada investigators had it solved before the sun came up this morning? I don't know how many crazy theories I have seen on these accident threads that ended up being pure nonsense. A certain Metro in BC was a great example.

[Maynard]

"Regnier added the TSB will take its time to conduct a thorough investigation, which may mean it could be a year or so before a final report is released.
"If we do uncover any serious safety deficiencies during the course of the investigation, we're not going to wait — we'll report on those publicly."

I'm sure all the Avcanada investigators had it solved before the sun came up this morning? I don't know how many crazy theories I have seen on these accident threads that ended up being pure nonsense. A certain Metro in BC was a great example.

And yet there have been instances where people have posted a theory the day after, and 2 years later was confirmed.... whether its assumptions or not, someone on here will have some sort of connection to an accident and present credible information. Anybody with half a pilot brain will be able to put pieces together.

[Ypilot]

The lack of deicing facility for 705 aircracft in the North is Canada's dirty little secret.

TC is the industry lapdog.
Experience has been balancing for the lack of regulatory oversight for many years.

[swordfish]

"dirty little secret in Canada's North"....

The amount of shit on the wing of a plane - and it still climbs and flies just fine - will amaze you if you haven't flown "up North" very much. Did they teach you in surface contamination and airborne icing that "there's no such thing as a little ice"? They don't have a clue and are totally fucked up.

[Zaibatsu]

"dirty little secret in Canada's North"....

The amount of shit on the wing of a plane - and it still climbs and flies just fine - will amaze you if you haven't flown "up North" very much. Did they teach you in surface contamination and airborne icing that "there's no such thing as a little ice"? They don't have a clue and are totally fucked up.

Not sure if you’re being sarcastic or not but it’s attitudes like that why we have planes crash. And there’s no point in having proper de icing facilities for fools who take off in FZRA.

[Illya Kuryakin]

"dirty little secret in Canada's North"....

The amount of shit on the wing of a plane - and it still climbs and flies just fine - will amaze you if you haven't flown "up North" very much. Did they teach you in surface contamination and airborne icing that "there's no such thing as a little ice"? They don't have a clue and are totally fucked up.

Not sure if you’re being sarcastic or not but it’s attitudes like that why we have planes crash. And there’s no point in having proper de icing facilities for fools who take off in FZRA.

Sarcastic or not, he has a valid point. Some will carry an amazing amount of crap, some will carry almost nothing at all. Since this knowledge comes at the cost, of sometimes getting it wrong (hello YPL Basler) we have adopted the clean wing concept
As far as waiting for the “ official”report, the LEAFS might have 2 Stanley Cups by then.
Speculation is a learning exercise. Let people learn.
Illya

[bald seagull]

"dirty little secret in Canada's North"....

The amount of shit on the wing of a plane - and it still climbs and flies just fine - will amaze you if you haven't flown "up North" very much. Did they teach you in surface contamination and airborne icing that "there's no such thing as a little ice"? They don't have a clue and are totally fucked up.

https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 19941031-1

https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 19820113-0

https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 19890310-1

[Cat Driver]

The amount of shit on the wing of a plane - and it still climbs and flies just fine - will amaze you if you haven't flown "up North" very much.

Well I have flown " up North " quite a lot and find that statement to be down right frightening.

A lot of low time pilots read these forums and those kinds of statements are setting a bad example to them.

Obviously you have not flown many different types of airplanes, the DC3 for instance will not tolerate any surface contamination such as frost, frozen snow or ice on the wings from being parked outside.

[Ypilot]

The amount of shit on the wing of a plane - and it still climbs and flies just fine - will amaze you if you haven't flown "up North" very much.

Well I have flown " up North " quite a lot and find that statement to be down right frightening.

A lot of low time pilots read these forums and those kinds of statements are setting a bad example to them.

Obviously you have not flown many different types of airplanes, the DC3 for instance will not tolerate any surface contamination such as frost, frozen snow or ice on the wings from being parked outside.

Who flies DC3?



With global warming, FZRA that was more a matter for guys down South, it is slowly becoming a problem for us. We need to adapt.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

"dirty little secret in Canada's North"....

The amount of shit on the wing of a plane - and it still climbs and flies just fine - will amaze you if you haven't flown "up North" very much. Did they teach you in surface contamination and airborne icing that "there's no such thing as a little ice"? They don't have a clue and are totally fucked up.

https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 19941031-1

https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 19820113-0

https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 19890310-1

https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 19851212-0

This comment is just in reply to a previous comment and does not mean I adhere to any theory or speculation on the cause of the crash

[Jean-Pierre]

DC-3 and ATR not the kind of plane I would choose for Canadian northern flying if required to operate in icing condition.

[montado]

YOU know you northern cowboy are right! It can be done!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=925MgqyU2 ... r_embedded

A video we can all laugh at right? Would you want to be deadheading on this flight?

All I can think of is that scene from the movie Annapolis where Tyrese Gibson puts one of the plebes in a body bag and says “I want you all to remember what that bag looks like with a body in it, because if you become officers this is where they're going to put your mistakes.”

That scene really sticks with me in the gravity of how precious life is.

[pelmet]

One thing I really don't miss about flying up north is the de-icing issue. These turboprops have a lot of surface area that is considered critical and the operator has a 45 gallon drum of fluid that has to be heated a significant time in advance. Of course you call in advance to have it heated up based on the weather but the weather is good. Too bad you picked up some ice on the descent that remains after landing. And then the pilot is expected to go way up in some unsteady looking telescopic lift and spray the aircraft. And pilots with this equipment have it good compared to a lot of other pilots.

And what about the holdover time for your de-icing procedure which starts when to start applying fluid. And these communities have no type IV with extended holdover time. And it seems the de-icing rules get more complicated every year. Have recently read about only 90% holdover time if the flaps are extended during taxi, type IV required for active frost, complicated holdover tables that don't always apply to said operation, snowfall rate versus visibility tables, etc, etc.

Then you are dispatched to short strips with max payload for a landing with no airframe ice but if you have even a little bit of ice left on your icing indicator(and the ice never seems to sublimate off of it), you are not legally allowed to land with your payload because you are supposed to use much higher approach speeds and your legal performance requirements don't allow it.

Yet thousands of flights get done year after year but you have to be careful. I'll stick to the de-icing bays now.

[pelmet]

"dirty little secret in Canada's North"....

The amount of shit on the wing of a plane - and it still climbs and flies just fine - will amaze you if you haven't flown "up North" very much. Did they teach you in surface contamination and airborne icing that "there's no such thing as a little ice"? They don't have a clue and are totally fucked up.

https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 19941031-1

https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 19820113-0

https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 19890310-1

While all the above are icing related accidents, there are significant differences. Here is an ATR accident that could have some closer alignment to what people are speculating about although the type of contamination could be different. Of note, this aircraft got airborne and was climbing until the flaps were retracted. Something to think about from an aerodynamic interest point of view.

https://reports.aviation-safety.net/201 ... VP-BYZ.pdf

[ChrisEvans]

Of note, this aircraft got airborne and was climbing until the flaps were retracte

Photos of the crash show flaps are still set at 15 degrees.

[Cat Driver]

Who flies DC3?

There was a time when the DC3 was the most used airplane of its type and arguably one of the best designed airplanes ever built.

Even though it has been replaced by more modern turbine airplane it s still in use in a few places.

For instance Borek chose the Basler conversion of the DC3 for their work in Antartica, probably the most demanding difficult place on earth to fly.

And of course I am biased because I flew them for over five thousand hours most of it on wheel ski's off airport in the far north and the Arctic.

It is a true pilots airplane.

[rookiepilot]

Forgive a dumb question.

How is it jet aircraft can takeoff in FZRA?

(Not saying that's the cause here)

[swordfish]

Ziabatsu, Not sure if you’re being sarcastic or not but it’s attitudes like that why we have planes crash. And there’s no point in having proper de icing facilities for fools who take off in FZRA.

Your unsubstantiated statement is an insult to the intelligence, experience, and complex considerations pilots without anti-icing facilities carefully consider with their experience with the aircraft's performance and characteristics in these conditions. If you are not experienced in living and working in Canada's remote North for a long period of time, there is little point on commenting on things you know nothing about.

[schnitzel2k3]

Last I checked - Fond du Lac, Wollaston, and U City lack deicing facilities and are serviced daily in all but the lowest weather, in all seasons thanks to the RNAVs.

Now its been 4 years since I've flown in that neck of the woods so things may have changed, but I don't see the chiefs pitching in for ice trucks. Even the mines had minimal deicing support. God forbid you had to ask for a spray. That was the mentality.

Glad everyone made it out. Pilots may not make it out with their licenses on this one if it's chalked up to ice and PDM.

Stay safe everyone....

S.

[swordfish]

Cat Driver, ...Obviously you have not flown many different types of airplanes, the DC3 for instance will not tolerate any surface contamination such as frost, frozen snow or ice on the wings from being parked outside.

I have 3200 hours on DC3 out of a Yellowknife base, and another 20,800 hours on many other types including Saunders, Metro, Jetstream, Beech 18, Conquest, Aztecs, 99s, King Airs of all flavours, and Beech 1900....for 44 years.

I have flown to every community and dew-line site in the North except Grise Fiord, and stayed in dozens of them overnight, or for days on end.

I am certainly qualified to say that it's complete bullshit that "there is no such thing as a little ice".