Westwind

[J31]

Forgive a dumb question.

How is it jet aircraft can takeoff in FZRA?

(Not saying that's the cause here)

Type 4 fluids have holdover times for freezing rain.

[digits_]

"dirty little secret in Canada's North"....

The amount of shit on the wing of a plane - and it still climbs and flies just fine - will amaze you if you haven't flown "up North" very much. Did they teach you in surface contamination and airborne icing that "there's no such thing as a little ice"? They don't have a clue and are totally fucked up.

It's a bit of a double edged sword. On one hand it is great that people get trained / "indoctrinated" that any ice is bad, to avoid accidents and unsafe flights. On the other hand, it stops all further research and testing to figure out how much ice is actually too much.

It's silly sometimes. Light snow that is not sticking to the airplane, and a whole fleet of jets gets deiced. Because it is SOP I guess? The "turboprop guys" that are taxiing by the deicing bay get a bad name then because they are "unsafe". No they're not.

[Eric Janson]

Forgive a dumb question.

How is it jet aircraft can takeoff in FZRA?

(Not saying that's the cause here)

Type 4 fluids have holdover times for freezing rain.

Type 4 fluids are approved for use in Light freezing rain - operations in freezing rain are not approved at my airline and there is no holdover time published.

In reality the short time between the start of de-icing and the expiry of the holdover time makes it almost impossible to get sprayed and airborne.

[av8ts]

It’s not just up North. There is a Dash operator out East that operates into airports with deice trucks that have type 1 and 4 yet they will not spray to remove ice on the wings from the previous flight. Hey, we flew in with it on, we must be able to fly out

[pelmet]

Of note, this aircraft got airborne and was climbing until the flaps were retracte

Photos of the crash show flaps are still set at 15 degrees.

You might be looking at the wrong photos.

https://cdni.rt.com/files/oldfiles/news ... men.si.jpg

My advice still stands. If somehow caught in a situation like this, retract flaps cautiously.

"At 01:34:00 at height 640 ft and speed of 139 kt the flaps retraction was started. At 01:34:08 after the retraction had been completed, at 690 ft and at a speed of 150 kt uncommanded development of right bank started. At 01:34:10 the A/P was disengaged. The bank angle reached around 40° to the right within 3 s and after that was counteracted by ailerons and rudder deflection."

https://reports.aviation-safety.net/201 ... VP-BYZ.pdf

[TG]

God forbid you had to ask for a spray. That was the mentality.

Well, this medieval's type of mentality has to change!
The same way we did about having sex with underage kids or goats. It is just not acceptable any more.



In civilized world that is

[schnitzel2k3]

The support was there at most of the mines and Stony, but good luck trying to use it. It was never prepped, so an hour later someone is there warming a cold truck, and taking nearly the entire holdover window to spray. And if someone misprayed you'd be sure to hear about the cost of the spray.

People talk about northern flying as the golden egg in your logbook but I feel it brought on complacency with operators which in turn pushed pilots to comply while getting creative, because if you didn't, Leeroy J. would and you'd hear about forever. We all have that innate hero gene that sometimes overrides common sense. Get home-itis is also a big factor on long days.

A lot of great experiences, many wonderful friends, but just as many head shaking moments too. I am content I no longer fly up north.

S.

[Mick G]

ATR42-300 lists minimum take off distance at 3576 ft. for Basic.

http://www.atraircraft.com/products_app ... re2014.pdf

Runway at Fond-du-Lac Airport listed at 3805 ft.

Not a huge amount of room for error, overweight or add a little ice to the wing............just saying.

[Maynard]

Of note, this aircraft got airborne and was climbing until the flaps were retracte

Photos of the crash show flaps are still set at 15 degrees.

You might be looking at the wrong photos.

https://cdni.rt.com/files/oldfiles/news ... men.si.jpg

My advice still stands. If somehow caught in a situation like this, retract flaps cautiously.

"At 01:34:00 at height 640 ft and speed of 139 kt the flaps retraction was started. At 01:34:08 after the retraction had been completed, at 690 ft and at a speed of 150 kt uncommanded development of right bank started. At 01:34:10 the A/P was disengaged. The bank angle reached around 40° to the right within 3 s and after that was counteracted by ailerons and rudder deflection."

https://reports.aviation-safety.net/201 ... VP-BYZ.pdf

Chris was stating that westwinds flaps are still set in the picture, meaning that the accident you brought up about retraction, has no validity to this accident.

[Dave Hadfield]

It's Dryden all over again, without the deaths, but that's pure luck.

The GFA showed freezing rain across the area. That means warm air aloft. The aircraft descended through the warm air and landed. The wings were thus above freezing.

The METAR showed light snow and -9C. So the snow stuck until the wings chilled.

The de-ice capability of the airport is almost useless. So they probably didn't.

So they took off with snow that would not slide off the wings.

Of course all the above is void and wrong if they de-iced. But... any bets?

As for letting the investigation take its course, look at the Halifax A-320. It took over 2 years and the conclusion is... simplistic.

[bobcaygeon]

The ATR has been known to have flame outs if residual ice/snow has built up in the intake and the deicing system is turned on (there's a "boot" in the nacelle). The ice, etc blocks the airflow into the engine hence the flame-out.
A double flame-out has occurred in Canada but they were lucky and were taxiing for departure when it happened.

Air Nova had something similar happen in a Dash 8 and now the bottom of the Dash 8 intake has a piece of metal (almost looks like a small wing fence) to ensure the ice can't build into large enough pieces to block the airflow into the engine. In that case the nacelle had filled with snow and then someone put the intake plugs in. It's a pita to check if there's ice in there (stick your hand/arm into the bypass door).

[valleyboy]

Well speculation will always be here and how a dc3 got into this but I will give you a speculation of my own. The dc3 incident in YPL was not because of ice. The surfaces were clean. I have my own theory after looking at talking to a few people and ice did not cause that accident. How is that for speculation and as far as the ATR passengers are claiming power lose in one engine then the other - so carry on!

[Cat Driver]

Was there too much air in the fuel tanks?

[AWOS]

Hmmm...There seems to be a trend in the comments here that proper deicing equipment and support isn't readily available at Northern stations.

[Ypilot]

Hmmm...There seems to be a trend in the comments here that proper deicing equipment and support isn't readily available at Northern stations.

Except the gallon of "warm" glycol and a ladder, no not much. Maybe TC inspectors can get some budget from the government and fly up there by using the CAE sim and come and check it out.

[Maynard]

Well speculation will always be here and how a dc3 got into this but I will give you a speculation of my own. The dc3 incident in YPL was not because of ice. The surfaces were clean. I have my own theory after looking at talking to a few people and ice did not cause that accident. How is that for speculation and as far as the ATR passengers are claiming power lose in one engine then the other - so carry on!

Ok sorry it was ice on the dc3 it was frost. Dc3s done crash land under GTOW with 2 operating engines.

[Zaibatsu]

Ziabatsu, Not sure if you’re being sarcastic or not but it’s attitudes like that why we have planes crash. And there’s no point in having proper de icing facilities for fools who take off in FZRA.

Your unsubstantiated statement is an insult to the intelligence, experience, and complex considerations pilots without anti-icing facilities carefully consider with their experience with the aircraft's performance and characteristics in these conditions. If you are not experienced in living and working in Canada's remote North for a long period of time, there is little point on commenting on things you know nothing about.

Oh.... my bad. I’m soooo sorry that I somehow insulted the sky gods who fly up in the far and remote north.

It’s really magical how things are sooo much more difficult on a remote airstrip with no facilities in the Arctic archipelago than it is on a remote airstrip south of 60 with no facilities. It’s also sure mindblisteringly amazing how a thin layer of hoar frost is so much more difficult to remove than wet heavy snow or thick ice when you have no de ice equipment, so it’s ok to skip out on removing that frost.

I’m not saying the plane won’t fly with a little ice. I’m just saying it’s really really stupid and unprofessional. And every so often, as the normalization of deviance is allowed to increase or a new type is introduced, people pay for that stupidity with their lives.

[Cat Driver]

Ziabatsu, this is the internet and almost every discussion gets off the rails either by accident or by someone with their own ideas.

When you make any comment here someone just may jump all over you and make it look like your opinion is flawed.

A good example here is the discussion on wing contamination.

There are several different ways wings get contaminated and when I was commenting on the subject I was referring to contamination on the top of the airplane from being parked in conditions where contamination can occur.

I see swordfish is all wound up about my comments on wing contamination.

So once again here is my opinion on it.

The most public example of what can happen when a pilot knowingly decides to fly with contaminated wings is the Dryden crash in 1989, George was a good friend of mine and I was really sad when I read about his decision to fly because it was not something he would normally do, however he did and the rest is history.

Now fast forward to today and the comments swordfish made about contamination and my thoughts on the subject.

Here is his comment.

Did they teach you in surface contamination and airborne icing that "there's no such thing as a little ice"? They don't have a clue and are totally fucked up.

I go with " The clean wing concept. "

That way I will not crash because the wings were contaminated.

Now to some pilots I may look like I don't have enough experience to know how much contamination I can fly with and that makes me inferior to them because they have far north experience and are real pilots.

So I guess I am not a real pilot......

......but I am alive and still accident free since I learned to fly in 1953.

Now back to the regular gong show these discussions sometimes become.

[Zaibatsu]

I like your signatures, Cat.

I’ve never had my decision to de ice questioned. I’ve had passengers thank me after delaying the flight to ensure the plane was clean. I’ve never been disciplined for cancelling a trip because there was forecast ground icing, or forecast airborne icing going into a place below freezing with no way to remove it.

And indeed, I’ve been stuck waiting for hours or overnight for weather to pass or outside on top of a cube van or ladder brooming and scraping ice and snow off while the client waits.

It is indeed the hardest part of flying, knowing when to say no... but likewise nobody ever died because of my decision not to.

[Gannet167]

Ziabatsu, this is the internet and almost every discussion gets off the rails either by accident or by someone with their own ideas.

When you make any comment here someone just may jump all over you and make it look like your opinion is flawed.

A good example here is the discussion on wing contamination.

There are several different ways wings get contaminated and when I was commenting on the subject I was referring to contamination on the top of the airplane from being parked in conditions where contamination can occur.

I see swordfish is all wound up about my comments on wing contamination.

So once again here is my opinion on it.

The most public example of what can happen when a pilot knowingly decides to fly with contaminated wings is the Dryden crash in 1989, George was a good friend of mine and I was really sad when I read about his decision to fly because it was not something he would normally do, however he did and the rest is history.

Now fast forward to today and the comments swordfish made about contamination and my thoughts on the subject.

Here is his comment.

Did they teach you in surface contamination and airborne icing that "there's no such thing as a little ice"? They don't have a clue and are totally fucked up.

I go with " The clean wing concept. "

That way I will not crash because the wings were contaminated.

Now to some pilots I may look like I don't have enough experience to know how much contamination I can fly with and that makes me inferior to them because they have far north experience and are real pilots.

So I guess I am not a real pilot......

......but I am alive and still accident free since I learned to fly in 1953.

Now back to the regular gong show these discussions sometimes become.

This.