complexintentions wrote: ↑Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:54 am
pelmet wrote: ↑Thu Apr 19, 2018 3:57 pm
complexintentions wrote: ↑Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:43 pm
Well, yes. And no. On our aircraft we cannot physically see our wingtips so we do have to depend on marshallers, wing walkers, and electronic guidance systems. If they give faulty guidance there are definitely situations where we'll hit things without being able to prevent it. Not sure how you could claim that we "messed up" in such a situation.
Misleading at best.....
In the end, it is really just good judgement and average skill that is required. The idea that not being able to see your wingtips means that you "have to depend on marshallers" is not entirely true. I have been on a tight-spaced ramp plenty of times in an aircraft with no wingtips visible from the cockpit where a 180 degree turn was required. It was a regular stop for us with aircraft parked very close to where we were maneuvering and no marshaller available for guidance until you have turned around and are facing him at which point you finally get some marshalling for the least risky portion of the entire parking maneuver....straight to the final stopping point. Meanwhile there have been wing clearance issues and blast issues during the majority of the maneuver into the ramp that was done without the marshaller.
Bottom line(and to clarify), there are operations and situations out there on a regular basis where aircraft having wingtips their pilot can't see are maneuvering in relatively confined locations. Admittedly, this is normally airlines at smaller airports or business jets on tight ramps intead of the widebodies which seem to have mostly major airport/airline style taxi-in situations. And depending on the situation, these aircraft do not necessarily require marshallers for all maneuvering in confined areas as was stated earlier. If things look tight, then most of us have stopped at one point and gotten help. There may be a lot more to this incident than simply misjudging wing clearance.
Speaking about the standard parking at the gate maneuver, I do try to remember to look for the aircraft type on the electronic guidance and that the ramp is clear even if being marshalled/guided in. Here is what can happen if you completely "depend" on marshalling/signals and don't take a look for stuff accidentally left on the ramp(usually inside angled yellow demarcation lines)...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vu2xQLEE8a4
No, pelmet, my statement is not misleading in the slightest.
There is no way we would ever be doing a 180 degree turn on
any ramp as our operations don't permit it. Even on a runway, a 180 is a captain-only manoeuvre as it's considered higher-risk due to the turning radius. (You need a minimum of 185 feet of width, and that's standing on the inside brake with the mains planted along one edge - not much fun in the dark on a shitty night somewhere like MLE.) As such your little anecdote is completely irrelevant to my comments. And there is no way we "try to remember" to check the electronic guidance for proper type: if it's wrong, or not displayed, we are mandated to stop immediately and wait until it's either correctly displayed or a human marshaller is dispatched. We can't just taxi until the "final stopping point". All of this to say, it just doesn't sound like your operations resemble mine in the slightest. We absolutely DO require marshalling for ALL maneuvering in confined areas - contrary to your statement.
What type are you flying that you claim to not be able to see your wingtips from the cockpit? I don't think you really grasp what I mean by that. I mean there is no angle whatsoever from which any part of the wings are viewable from the cockpit of a B777, and the wingspan is 212 feet. I'm not talking about not being able to see them because it's dark, or they're too far away, or the sun is in my eyes. There is no possible way to see them. Judging distance with depth perception is a tad difficult if you can't see something. Using visible cues in a tight situation is a possibility in most types, every other one I've every flown, in fact. A poor idea in some situations, but at least a possibility. It simply isn't for us, and thus yes, we do have to depend heavily on marshallers/wing walkers, as I said, more than on other types. How is that "misleading"?
And, as you typically do, you've gone on a tangent to address things no one commented on, such as checking the area as you approach the stand. I guess it's just easier to win debates that you start with yourself?
Sorry, your statement "On our aircraft we cannot physically see our wingtips so we do have to depend on marshallers, wing walkers, and electronic guidance systems" could easily mislead someone. Not because I doubt that you are using marshallers, etc but because the statement can be easily interpreted as....if you can't see your wingtips then marshallers, guidance systems, etc are a requirement. That may not be what you meant but that is how it could easily be interpreted. Nitpicking? perhaps but there are a lot of lower experienced pilots here who may wrongly interpret your statements, therefore I am clarifying.
There are aircraft out there with the same issue of wingtips not visible from the cockpit that are doing maneuvering in confined areas as I have seen first hand many times. There are no doubt plenty of other swept-wing jets where you can't see the wingtips. I think you will find that this includes some business jets.
Being the accurate person that I am, you will also notice that I made a qualification in my earlier post that widebody jets typically are marshalled into wherever they park. But remember, you can see the wingtips from the cockpit on some of these big jets, even the biggest:) so the reason for them always being marshalled goes beyond not being able to see wingtips.
Getting back to this incident, I suppose one can see their wingtips in a Citation aircraft like the one in the ramp collision but who knows if there was a co-pilot. The right wingtip may not have been visible to the pilot in the left seat. Once again, there may be more to this story than just a error in estimating clearance by a pilot conscientious taxiing carefully.
As for my other information posted about the incident ....you can call it going off on a tangent to post information showing how an accident can happen while being marshalled into the gate but I call it spreading safety information and giving specific examples of how to prevent an accident right here on an accident/incident forum. That is my goal and I am confident that a comparison of my posts to yours would show much more real-world accident prevention information in my posts by far. While there are those out there who try to belittle such things, I will continue to post about such incidents and discuss preventing them. It is too important not to do so.
And just because no one has commented on a subject, it doesn't mean that it is not worthy to bring the subject up. The one I brought up(the so-called tangent) is related to this overall subject ie. collision during ramp ops. If not related, I will start a new thread. I noticed another post from you recently making a similar statement about the subjects in my posts. Feel free to set up yourself to block them if there is an issue.
....and Fly Safely.