Navajo lands on the street in yyc

calgaryguy · Post by **calgaryguy** » Sat Apr 28, 2018 6:14 am

ditar wrote: ↑Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:25 pm I’ve never flown a Navajo so I have no experience with it. How reliable/accurate are the fuel gauges?

Accurate enough. Loss of fuel pressure due to fuel starvation looks awfully like a fuel pump failure. Forgot to transfer back to the main tanks? Misidentified emptying the aux tanks as a fuel pump failure and shut them both down? Mere speculation.

pdw · Post by **pdw** » Sat Apr 28, 2018 2:55 pm

Agree, it's a definitely a possibililty ("mere speculation") that ample supply remains in there, s o m e w h e r e .

C.W.E. · Post by **C.W.E.** » Sat Apr 28, 2018 4:54 pm

Agree, it's a definitely a possibililty ("mere speculation") that ample supply remains in there, s o m e w h e r e .

You must keep the faith that the experts in T.C. and the TSB will find it if it is there, remember it is only a few days since it happened and there are so many places that fuel could be they have not had sufficient time to find it yet.

trey kule · Post by **trey kule** » Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:43 pm

I cannot tell from the pictures. Are the fuel caps all on?
That could explain a big fuel loss

Not that they could not have been put on afterwards...

calgaryguy · Post by **calgaryguy** » Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:48 pm

C.W.E. wrote: ↑Sat Apr 28, 2018 4:54 pm
Agree, it's a definitely a possibililty ("mere speculation") that ample supply remains in there, s o m e w h e r e .
You must keep the faith that the experts in T.C. and the TSB will find it if it is there, remember it is only a few days since it happened and there are so many places that fuel could be they have not had sufficient time to find it yet.

I think they left it somewhere in Medicine Hat.

If it did run out of gas, how out of the Situational Awareness loop are you that you press on and attempt to make it over a populated city rather than put it down in a field, or one of the small strips along the way before both quit? Just a thought.

New nickname is "The Super T Glider."

calgaryguy · Post by **calgaryguy** » Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:55 pm

trey kule wrote: ↑Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:43 pm I cannot tell from the pictures. Are the fuel caps all on?
That could explain a big fuel loss

Not that they could not have been put on afterwards...

There is a picture in one of the news articles with the TSB taking a photo of the gas cap and filler opening. The tab on the cap was up so it's a possibility.

GyvAir · Post by **GyvAir** » Sat Apr 28, 2018 7:10 pm

calgaryguy wrote: ↑Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:55 pm The tab on the cap was up so it's a possibility.

Sharp eyes!

pdw · Post by **pdw** » Sun Apr 29, 2018 10:26 am

Although, it's not impossible that someone took a quick look (at any time after that landing) just to check how dry, and not necessarily a pilot.

calgaryguy · Post by **calgaryguy** » Sun Apr 29, 2018 12:46 pm

pdw wrote: ↑Sun Apr 29, 2018 10:26 am Although, it's not impossible that someone took a quick look (at any time after that landing) just to check how dry, and not necessarily a pilot.

There's another photo from the Herald that shows the TSB opening up the cap.

The chances of 2 independent systems failing at the exact time are very slim. Most common causes are fuel starvation, or fuel contamination i.e. jet fuel. Both unacceptable mistakes you can eliminate through discipline.

I also highly doubt all 4 fuel pumps would fail at the same time.

C.W.E. · Post by **C.W.E.** » Sun Apr 29, 2018 2:29 pm

The lack of information on something as simple as determining if this airplane ran out of fuel is typical of aviation in Canada.

If you ignore these accidents the public will soon forget and there will be no real effort made to protect the paying public from exposure to such preventable accidents.

That crew were just plain lucky no one was killed.

If they ran out of fuel they should be charged with negligent operation of an airplane carrying paying passengers at the very least....and T.C. should be included in the charge for failure to ensure the safety of the flying public..

digits_ · Post by **digits_** » Sun Apr 29, 2018 2:37 pm

C.W.E. wrote: ↑Sun Apr 29, 2018 2:29 pm The lack of information on something as simple as determining if this airplane ran out of fuel is typical of aviation in Canada.

If you ignore these accidents the public will soon forget and there will be no real effort made to protect the paying public from exposure to such preventable accidents.

That crew were just plain lucky no one was killed.

They should be charged with negligent operation of an airplane carrying paying passengers at the very least....and T.C. should be included in the charge for failure to ensure the safety of the flying public..

Yeah! It hasn't been determined if it ran out of fuel, but let's charge the crew anyway! At least it will be quick.

C.W.E. · Post by **C.W.E.** » Sun Apr 29, 2018 3:03 pm

Yeah! It hasn't been determined if it ran out of fuel, but let's charge the crew anyway! At least it will be quick.

I clearly said " If they ran out of fuel. "

Do you disagree they should be charged and just let it go as another slight mistake?

I often wonder about some of the thought processes of posters here on these forums.

How long do you think it should take to determine if that machine was out of fuel digits?

switchflicker · Post by **switchflicker** » Sun Apr 29, 2018 3:52 pm

Who says that they haven’t determined the fuel status. They being the investigation authority ie TSB

C.W.E. · Post by **C.W.E.** » Sun Apr 29, 2018 5:44 pm

Who says that they haven’t determined the fuel status.

Digits did.

Yeah! It hasn't been determined if it ran out of fuel,

They being the investigation authority ie TSB

The TSB?

They take forever to release any findings but maybe eventually they will share it with the public.

Posthumane · Post by **Posthumane** » Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:33 am

Blue Yonder wrote: ↑Fri Apr 27, 2018 8:06 am It's been a while since this NOTAM was issued but, make me wonder if the AVGAS issue played a hand here.

CYHQ
180001 CYHQ NATIONAL
CYHQ POTENTIAL QUALITY ISSUE OF FUEL 100LL (JET A NOT AFFECTED)
DISTRIBUTED BY IMPERIAL OIL (EXTENT UNKNOWN)
VERIFY LOCALLY FOR AVBL
1802160008 TIL APRX 1802231800

Just heard through the rumour mill that Integra Air (Bar XH) in Medicine Hat just closed their doors yesterday to all avgas sales due to internal issues (I think related to a change in ownership?). They are the only supplier that does public sales in CYXH. Super T has their own bowser for Avgas for their own use, though it's not huge. I'm not sure how often they have to refill it or who their supplier is. I haven't filled up in the last week in Medicine Hat so I'm not sure if there were any issues with fuel availability prior to this incident.

Edit: There's no NOTAM about 100LL availability so the rumour could be BS... take with salt.

digits_ · Post by **digits_** » Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:44 am

C.W.E. wrote: ↑Sun Apr 29, 2018 3:03 pm
Yeah! It hasn't been determined if it ran out of fuel, but let's charge the crew anyway! At least it will be quick.
I clearly said " If they ran out of fuel. "

No you didn't. You changed your post after I quoted you to add that. My post has your original post quoted in it.

A pretty pathetic way to try and win an argument.

I often wonder about some of the thought processes of posters here on these forums.

Me too

C.W.E. · Post by **C.W.E.** » Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:17 pm

Digits:

If there was legal fuel in that airplane even for a VFR flight how could it run out of fuel?

If it was a broken fuel line there would be evidence such as fuel stain and a broken line.

It only takes a few minutes to determine that, unless of course the airplane was moved before the authorities saw it.

Both engines are feathered.... any idea why?

AuxBatOn · Post by **AuxBatOn** » Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:33 pm

Would you rather they make hasty conclusions to satisfy your thirst for blood or take the time to investigate and exclude any other possible (note I did not say probable) failure mechanisms before making conclusions that may destroy a company or an individual?

digits_ · Post by **digits_** » Mon Apr 30, 2018 6:14 pm

C.W.E. wrote: ↑Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:17 pm Digits:

If there was legal fuel in that airplane even for a VFR flight how could it run out of fuel?

If it was a broken fuel line there would be evidence such as fuel stain and a broken line.

It only takes a few minutes to determine that, unless of course the airplane was moved before the authorities saw it.

Both engines are feathered.... any idea why?

- Broken fuel line (takes time to determine that with certainty, did it happen before, during or after flight?)
- Fuel might have leaked out of plane during the crash
- Faulty fuel truck meter
- Faulty airplane fuel indicator
- Leak in tanks
- Obstruction in tanks or vent which causes reduction in fuel volume in bladder tanks
- Broken fuel selector(s)
- Firewall shut off valves malfunctioning
- Crew mishandling switches (eg both cross feeding from empty tank)
- Crew error while fueling up

And I am sure there are many more possible options that I didn't think of here.

They probably feathered the engines because they both failed, which doesn't give us a lot of extra info, as they shouldn't have crashed in the first place if at least one engine was operating.

trey kule · Post by **trey kule** » Mon Apr 30, 2018 6:17 pm

A difficult question indeed......AuxBat

Based on what I have read here,maybe we could seek a compromise. We could jump to a quick conclusion based on wild speculation, and rally the villagers to a lynch mob.

Then, when the facts do come out, if we are wrong...well who really cares? The fun is over and everyone is off to speculate on whatever the next accident is all about.. .

Now full caveat...This will all be done respectfully, and the aim is only to learn from it, because, you know, a navajo has never crashed before. And there is absolutely nothing to be learned from accidents of more than 6 months in the past...where you got the idea anyone should wait for the facts is beyond me..experts here do not need facts to come to conclusions.
Or discuss possabilities because waiting for the facts is just so darn hard...

Navajo lands on the street in yyc

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