C-47 Takeoff Groundloop and Crash

[cncpc]

The split second it takes you to move your hand from the control wheel to the throttles can be the difference between saving a landing when the wind suddenly changes in the flare or driving the gear through the wings.

And that is why I fly them with one hand on the wheel and the other hand on the throttle's.

I have yet to fly an airplane that had controls so hard to move I needed two hands to move them

Just putting this out there, because it's happened to me.

Isn't it possible that this could have happened with an incorrectly indicating airspeed indicator. One that indicated, but hung before 40 knots, or was slow rising up to that?

Back in 87, I bought an A-26 Onmark conversion as an investment. It was situated at West Houston airport and I'd had a guy who was to be the training pilot for the type rating come and check it out as he was also an A&P. We had to take it to Lakefront in N.O. to get some work done on the gill mechanism. We both arrive there, me from La Jolla and this guy from Covington, GA, get in and taxi to the end, runups, everything. Line up, do the takeoff briefing, I think V1 was 140 mph. 4000 feet of runway. We add power, all normal, full power, airspeed alive, but it is slowing around 70 mph and if we reject, we're through a cow fence and into a pasture. So the guy says, "something's wrong, we got speed, rotate" And I did, and we had lots of speed. We go to Lakefront at max indicated around 140, and land.

First thing they do the next day is go into the airspeed system. They find some kind of big larvae blocking the pitot line.

So, in this instance, is it possible that the pilot never saw 40 knots, never tried to raise the tail, and was caught by surprise by the liftoff?

[pelmet]

Well, at least we now know why he kept the tail down. He was actually attempting to get airborne and avoid a culvert. You can see it in the video. I am curious to find out what the crosswind component was that day, how difficult it is to fly a DC-3 in that amount of crosswind, and the tailwheel experience of the co-pilot as it appears that this is where the directional control issues started. There does appear to be a bit of a swing...possibly...but it is difficult to tell because of the camera angle.

Anybody heard what the winds were at the time of the accident?

[PilotDAR]

He was actually attempting to get airborne and avoid a culvert.

I have flown a few taildraggers which will fly off in three point attitude, and accelerate from there, but many won't. I've not tried it in a DC-3, and would not feel comfortable doing so. For my experience in the DC-3, the tail is already coming up as the airspeed comes alive. If there is a failed ASI, the tail should be coming up anyway. If the tail is not coming up, the aircraft is being flown poorly, or something is very wrong. If the pilot is attempting to hold the nose up, the aircraft will become airborne in ground effect, and have very disappointing acceleration from there - if any. These are characteristics which first must be learned by rote during training, and then as experience is gained on type, will become self evident.

Clair P. of Basler explained to me the challenges he has faced training "airline" pilots to fly a taildragger for the first time - in the DC-3. It would certainly have been much easier a half century ago or more, when it was likely that most pilots would have flown their primary training in taildraggers, so those skills would be ingrained. I guess it's like teaching driving standard now.

[C.W.E.]

I have flown a few taildraggers which will fly off in three point attitude, and accelerate from there, but many won't. I've not tried it in a DC-3, and would not feel comfortable doing so.

Especially with 13 passengers in it.

The chances of the results being the same as in that crash are just far to risky to even think of trying to force it into the air.

[cncpc]

I took an overhead of Burnet runway and figured out where the control was lost and the swerve back across the runway.

I'm assuming the whole runway was used. I think I see the VASIS boxes to the side, and the aircraft approaches and passes them. They are just before the first taxiway.

The distance of the straight red line is 1717 feet. It took 23 seconds to travel that line, or an average speed of 50 mph. So the speed at the liftoff was a fair bit more than 50, more than stall. And much more than the 40 mph at which the tail would be raised.

The normal takeoff roll of a DC-3 is 1600 feet. VMC is 87 mph. It seems the pilots from past experience would have expected to be airborne by the culvert. And on the hard surface.

I do see a slight downward deflection of the elevator as it passes abeam the camera and they start to lose it. Then the right elevator hits the tarmac and the elevator as a whole is deflected upwards, maybe enough to be knocked out of the pilot's hand.

I don't particularly have a theory from this, but perhaps the info will help . and Eric and the other DC-3 experienced guys comment.

planview at burnet.jpg (340.6 KiB) Viewed 2360 times

[Eric Janson]

If there are directional control issues that are bad enough that the left seat Pilot has to take control then it's probably time to abort rather than try to salvage things.

This is what happens all too frequently when you let people with no prior experience with these aircraft fly them.

https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 19960925-0

[valleyboy]

the tail is already coming up as the airspeed comes alive

Basler conversion

Not the case with a 30,000 lb take off - while you can wait for the tail to fly and chew up runway in a drag attitude(DC3T accelerates best with a negative angle of attack) it won't be in the air at 60 kts with 11,000 lbs in the back and it does take all your strength with 2 hands to raise the tail and get the tail flying and control effectiveness, Xwind limitation is demonstrated at 25 kts - this is not a limitation but a guide line while you learn to fly it. To each his own style but because of control wheel movement you can not do full wheel movements with one hand and in a xwind during the roll out you need that ability as well as in the initial stages of the T/O roll -- I even land the Herc 2 handed but that's me and it works for me so how can anyone say it's wrong.

[Victory]

He was actually attempting to get airborne and avoid a culvert.

I have flown a few taildraggers which will fly off in three point attitude, and accelerate from there, but many won't. I've not tried it in a DC-3, and would not feel comfortable doing so. For my experience in the DC-3, the tail is already coming up as the airspeed comes alive. If there is a failed ASI, the tail should be coming up anyway. If the tail is not coming up, the aircraft is being flown poorly, or something is very wrong. If the pilot is attempting to hold the nose up, the aircraft will become airborne in ground effect, and have very disappointing acceleration from there - if any. These are characteristics which first must be learned by rote during training, and then as experience is gained on type, will become self evident.

Clair P. of Basler explained to me the challenges he has faced training "airline" pilots to fly a taildragger for the first time - in the DC-3. It would certainly have been much easier a half century ago or more, when it was likely that most pilots would have flown their primary training in taildraggers, so those skills would be ingrained. I guess it's like teaching driving standard now.

I wonder if this is what happened in that Basler crash in Pickle Lake.

[hamstandard]

[quote=valleyboy post_id=1047067 time=1532780726 user_id=49277]
BTW I always flew a DC3 with 2 hands on the yolk after setting power and used both hands in the flare as well and had no problem getting to throttles if needed. The only aeroplanes I didn't land with 2 hands were aircraft with spoilers. So I guess to each his own, never liked being in step anyway
[/quote]
I don't get it. We have someone here repeatedly posting things questioning the abilities of pilots who fly with two hands on the yolk and stating that you would never need two hands to get the tail up on a three yet others say and do otherwise.

What's the deal?

[photofly]

it’s a cock measuring contest. They all love each other, in real life.

[Jimmy2]

I remember reading your posts when you were getting your start in aviation. Now you're the most bitter angry person on the board. Maybe more than Doc. What happened?

[photofly]

Sooo off topic

[Eric Janson]

There's another potential issue that may have contributed to the accident sequence.

It's likely training was done in an empty aircraft with a minimal fuel load.

The accident aircraft was loaded to within 1000lbs of maximum according to reports.

The aircraft will feel very different on take-off loaded compared to empty - the tail may have felt very heavy and certainly would have required more forward elevator to get into the air.

[valleyboy]

Well it could be my dodge is better than your ford but the point made in the video is that there was a lack of training. It was mentioned above but I will repeat it. Training a pilot today on conventional gear is all together different than 30 to 40 years ago. Back then almost every one flew nothing else but aircraft with a wheel or a ski attached to the back. Did I also mention several thousand hours experience as well. It boiled down to a cpl circuits and there were flying the DAK with no issues but the instrument work was terrible. Today the opposite is true, low time, no experience on conventional gear and a head full of theory. Instruments and such are reasonable for level of experience but stick and rudder skills are poor and experience levels make it difficult to adapt from a trike trainer to something sitting 14 feet in the air and a static deck angle of 11 degrees.

I can now throw out a real zinger- I also used flap for take off on a DC3 - let the sh1t show start

[Eric Janson]

Preliminary NTSB Report

https://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.avia ... 0721X41413

No mention of the culvert.

[Victory]

He told the co-pilot not to raise the tail. I've never flown a DC-3, all the tailtraggers I've tried will takeoff just fine in a 3 point attitude (albeit further down the runway). But according to this thread that is a big mistake in a DC-3.

[Eric Janson]

He told the co-pilot not to raise the tail. I've never flown a DC-3, all the tailtraggers I've tried will takeoff just fine in a 3 point attitude (albeit further down the runway). But according to this thread that is a big mistake in a DC-3.

I was always taught to get the tail up asap. Helps with directional control and prevents the aircraft getting airborne at too low a speed - exactly what happened in this accident.