3 dead, 2 uninjured in NWT

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rookiepilot
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Re: 3 dead, 2 uninjured in NWT

Post by rookiepilot »

Here, CNPC, a job opening for you up there.

https://ca.indeed.com/m/viewjob?jk=ad12 ... erritories

Right up your alley being so dazzled by the media.

Write your own story.
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Bede
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Re: 3 dead, 2 uninjured in NWT

Post by Bede »

NorthernNews wrote: Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:13 pm
Slats wrote: Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:16 pm Terrible two days for Fort Simpson based aviation first with the CBD6 crash and a day later, this.
I've long maintained that the 206 is a terribly unsafe design for a float plane. If beaver doors have been redesigned for better egress, this aircraft should not even be allowed in commercial float ops, in my opinion.
My sincere condolences and thoughts go to everyone affected by this very sad and tragic event.
Good day. My name is Brendan Burke and I'm a reporter with News/North based in Yellowknife, NWT. With this forum being a wealth of a knowledge for all things aircraft related, I'm reaching out to you and other experienced posters in an effort to clarify/understand some things related to Thursday's fatal Cessna 206 airplane crash near Nahanni National Park Reserve. First and foremost, I'd like to extend my deepest sympathies to the victims and their families.

As you can imagine with the investigation being in its infancy, little information is coming out by way of NWT RCMP and the Transportation Board of Canada. That said, I've learned this morning that the plane crashed during a route landing at Little Doctor Lake (a theory made by a poster above that can now be confirmed).

Here's an excerpt from this morning's update:

"The Cessna 206 airplane involved in Thursday’s fatal accident that claimed the lives of three tourists was landing when it crashed near Nahanni National Park Reserve, says Ted Grant, owner of the flightseeing aircraft company Simpson Air.
Five people were on board the plane when it went down at Little Doctor Lake just after 6:30 p.m. Three tourists – two people from Saskatchewan and another from Alberta – were killed in the crash. A female pilot and a female passenger survived. The two women were uninjured in the crash.
“(The passengers were on) a day tour of the Nahanni National Park. They’d already been to Virginia Falls and spent a couple hours touring at the falls and then they were on their way back here to (Fort) Simpson,” Grant told News/North Monday.
“Normally we do a stop there at Little Doctor Lake for 20 minutes or half an hour and that’s where the airplane was landing when the incident happened,” he said.

When you hear that two people, a pilot and a passenger, left the crash unharmed while three others perished, what immediately comes to mind as how that could have happened? The plane is clearly a tiny aircraft, and I've been told the deaths could have arisen from where the passengers were positioned inside the plane.

In short, to fill in blanks for our readers and paint a picture as to what could have occurred, what do you think likely happened to the the plane and its passengers when it crashed on landing? Could the aircraft have been inverted on impact, etc.? Any fact and experience-based responses/theories/scenarios would be greatly appreciated.

I cannot thank you enough and look forward to hopefully speaking with you further.

Regards,

Brendan
Hi Brendan,

The last time that I spoke with one of your reporters (Yes News North) was probably 15-20 years ago. We had a plane go missing, but it ended happily, a mere diversion in the arctic due to bad wx and the pilot wanted to conserve fuel and sit out the weather. Your reporters massively twisted my words turning a text book example of good decision making into a sensationalist cover story claiming that the pilot ran out of fuel. I will never speak to a reporter again. I also provide this counsel to younger pilots.
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Re: 3 dead, 2 uninjured in NWT

Post by PilotDAR »

Your reporters massively twisted my words turning a text book example of good decision making into a sensationalist cover story
Yes, I've had similar experience, and it has made me wary of providing information to reporters. If I felt that a reporter would accurately report the facts, and not sensationalize and disfavour the pilot, I'd be more willing to provide information. That confidence is not there for me.
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Re: 3 dead, 2 uninjured in NWT

Post by rookiepilot »

PilotDAR wrote: Thu Aug 23, 2018 6:09 pm
Your reporters massively twisted my words turning a text book example of good decision making into a sensationalist cover story
Yes, I've had similar experience, and it has made me wary of providing information to reporters. If I felt that a reporter would accurately report the facts, and not sensationalize and disfavour the pilot, I'd be more willing to provide information. That confidence is not there for me.
This has also been my observation.
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Last edited by rookiepilot on Fri Aug 24, 2018 4:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
C.W.E.
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Re: 3 dead, 2 uninjured in NWT

Post by C.W.E. »

As far as I can determine there has been no public release of what caused this accident or if it sank upside down or any other details.

As to the safety issue with that arplane I do have some personal knowledge of them as I flew a TU206 on Wipline amphibs. for a logging company for about 800 hours and we restricted it to four occupants when operating on the water due to the difficulty of getting out of it should it end up upside down in the water.

I personally would not operate one in a commercial operation.
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Re: 3 dead, 2 uninjured in NWT

Post by pelmet »

Slats wrote: Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:16 pm Terrible two days for Fort Simpson based aviation first with the CBD6 crash and a day later, this.
"C-GANE, a Cessna TU206G aircraft operated by South Nahanni Airways, was departing Nahanni Butte, NT (CBD6) for Ft. Simpson, NT (CYFS) with 1 pilot and 3 passengers on board. The flight departed at 1330 MDT from Runway 16 at CBD6 and shortly after liftoff, the aircraft experienced an engine power loss and was unable to climb. The pilot conducted a forced landing, and the aircraft came to a rest against the trees on the east side of the runway, perpendicular to the threshold of Runway 34. The aircraft sustained substantial damage. Two occupants sustained serious injuries, and two occupants received minor injuries. The ELT activated."


"C-FNEQ, a float equipped Cessna U206G aircraft operated by Simpson Air, was conducting a tour flight from Fort Simpson, NT (CYFS) to Virginia Falls, NT and Little Doctor Lake, NT with 1 pilot and 4 passengers on board. During the landing at Little Doctor Lake, control was lost during the initial landing phase. The right float dug into a wave, resulting in the right wing coming into contact with the surface of the lake. Subsequently, the aircraft nosed over and came to rest inverted on the surface. The pilot and one passenger were able to escape the submerged fuselage and got up on the floats; they were rescued by a nearby boater within 10 minutes. Three occupants were fatal. The ELT activated, however no signal was received."

Was told the other day that the PIC of the fatal accident was not exactly the strongest of float pilots and she was sent home from a previous job in northern Ontario. However, that info is from a Cessna amphib owner whose kid works at the company in northern Ontario and the info may not be accurate. Mind you, that kind of info is the kind of info that never gets into the TSB final reports, just like a well known aviation disaster a few years ago in the high north. But it helps explain a lot about probable cause.
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Last edited by pelmet on Fri Sep 28, 2018 10:47 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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TheRealMcCoy
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Re: 3 dead, 2 uninjured in NWT

Post by TheRealMcCoy »

Obviously depending on damage; but a plane should theoretically remain afloat upside if it's on pontoons? At least for a while until they fill with water...
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AR705
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Re: 3 dead, 2 uninjured in NWT

Post by AR705 »

Yes, I believe so. Should remain floating indefinitely unless floats have significant damage. All openings on top would be underwater but upside down. Shouldn't fill up. And if I'm not mistaken, a single float has sufficient buoyancy to float the entire plane (in this case it would sit low in the water but shouldn't sink).

Thanks for posting the update, I missed that. One of my biggest fears of flying floats is having something like this happen! Flying straight floats lessens some of the risk (in my mind at least) but as many accidents have shown, can still end upside down...
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pelmet
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Re: 3 dead, 2 uninjured in NWT

Post by pelmet »

AR705 wrote: Fri Sep 14, 2018 7:18 pm Flying straight floats lessens some of the risk
Why?
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Re: 3 dead, 2 uninjured in NWT

Post by PilotDAR »

Flying straight floats lessens some of the risk

Why?
You can't mistakenly land wheels down in the water on straight floats.
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Re: 3 dead, 2 uninjured in NWT

Post by godsrcrazy »

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Re: 3 dead, 2 uninjured in NWT

Post by Zaibatsu »

I knew it.

Hopefully this spurs some action from industry and regulator to address this issue.
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Re: 3 dead, 2 uninjured in NWT

Post by TailwheelPilot »

A study on emergency exits from submerged floatplanes was commissioned in 2006, but it ultimately indicated “there were no suitable design changes that could feasibly be applied to the entire Cessna 206 fleet,” the TSB said.
The flap/rear door issue is well known and has always been an issue - IMO Cessna should have foreseen the problem and dealt with it on the drawing board - but the extra cabin volume and the large cargo door are what make the 206 desirable (and why so few P models exist).

The co-pilot door is expensive and small, and not useful for the rear passengers. Redesigned cargo doors or flaps would be great but the cost to certify and modify all 206s would probably see many operators replacing them instead. Punch-out or opening rear windows may also work, but again probably a lot of engineering work would be required. A paper restriction (ie four people; or five with only one middle seat like the 206H, I think) may help, but not in this accident since at least one middle row passenger did not survive (assuming 2-2-1 seating).

I found that the middle row access to the left door is very good - easier to get in and out than it was for me in the pilot seat without moving my seat. That has me wondering why only two people got out. Was initial egress through the window versus the door (quoted at Cabin Radio from the TSB advisory) a factor that made it more difficult for the deceased to egress? What was the physical condition of the 72 year olds and was it an issue?

Something that may have helped is a better design for the door handles/latches - after egress the pilot could not get the doors open due to them being latched from the inside. It always struck me as odd that many Cessnas (at least the single pistons) have external door handles that cannot open the door when latched from the inside (but not locked, since those are only on the exterior). Handles that can open the door from either side when unlocked and separate locks for each door makes far more sense to me. The rear baggage door on other single piston Cessnas only having an exterior latch has also been an issue in previous accidents (as well as being locked for flight).
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Re: 3 dead, 2 uninjured in NWT

Post by pelmet »

Here is the final report....

http://www.bst-tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-r ... 8w0129.pdf

Very inexperienced pilot. I thought the insurance companies required a lot more hours than that. Or is this typical for total experience for the first job.
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Re: 3 dead, 2 uninjured in NWT

Post by porcsord »

For a first job?

I mean, she had 5 times the total time legally required, and 4 times the float time legally required.
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Re: 3 dead, 2 uninjured in NWT

Post by Victory »

Shocking door design. The rear passengers didn't have a chance.
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Re: 3 dead, 2 uninjured in NWT

Post by pelmet »

porcsord wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:00 pm For a first job?

I mean, she had 5 times the total time legally required, and 4 times the float time legally required.
7 hours float time when hired. I have read over and over that no-one will hire a new float rated person until many more hours are accumulated(possibly 100) due to insurance reasons and that is just for a rental. Has that changed for some reason. Pilot shortage?
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Re: 3 dead, 2 uninjured in NWT

Post by beaverpuq »

Flown a few different types on floats. There are certain seats on all of them I would not want to be in if I were upside down. The egress training will shock you when you see how easy it is to get confused. Sad stuff again.
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Re: 3 dead, 2 uninjured in NWT

Post by magic wand »

Victory wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:51 pm Shocking door design. The rear passengers didn't have a chance.
Will the appropriate authorities do anything about this..NO.

Until the egress issue, on floats, is addressed - I think that all C206 should be restricted to land operations.


There is a simple solution yet the regulators refuse to act on the issue.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/ca ... -1.5037433


Time for the FAA or TSB or TC or whom-ever to grow a set and cease float operations until the breakaway doors are
installed.
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Re: 3 dead, 2 uninjured in NWT

Post by shimmydampner »

porcsord wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:00 pm For a first job?

I mean, she had 5 times the total time legally required, and 4 times the float time legally required.
32 hours floats at the time of the accident. That's a challenging corner of the country to be flying floats in with so little experience.
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