3 dead, 2 uninjured in NWT

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porcsord
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Re: 3 dead, 2 uninjured in NWT

Post by porcsord »

corethatthermal wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:22 pm
and this is not a sexist remark
And
corethatthermal wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:22 pm
Bush flying requires strength, quick intuitive reflexes, assertiveness, lots of confidence, the ability to make solitary decisions and decisions that may go against the grain. A male is better equipped for bush flying to due an inherent higher level of these traits!
And to think I was all excited to call you a peice of shit, and then realized that it's a troll account, and you were just trying to be edgy. So instead: well played.
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Re: 3 dead, 2 uninjured in NWT

Post by PilotDAR »

Wat would it cost for a company to engineer a fix ( Make the forward door fixed and increase the aft door and put a handle on it ) $10-$15000 ? Is TC too anal to fast track approval of a companies aft door mod kit ? Will Cessna be trying to prevent this kind of mod?
Well, let's take this step by step:

Cessna doesn't care, and won't help. If they were ultimately awesomely impressed with an STC'd mod to one of their designs, they might market the STC (they sought me out to market an STC I did on their planes, ad do, but they won't start the process for you).

TC aren't anal, and don't fast track anything. TC follows a prescribed process to evaluate a submission which someone from industry makes to them. They put in place a "normal" process, and an alternate, which is much slower, but they have to give you the option. These days, while there is a little disharmony with the FAA, following the 737 MAX debacle, TC are being a little more thorough.
Make the forward door fixed and increase the aft door and put a handle on it
So I understand, you're proposing to completely reconfigure the back window, and aft fuselage to accommodate a rear door which opens further aft? Sort of make a Cessna 207 out of a 206?
Wat would it cost for a company to engineer a fix..... $10-$15000 ?
Multiply by a hundred, then sell $100k kits, which cost $150k to install.

The Cessna 206 is a compromise plane, and one of the compromises ended up being emergency exit from the back seats. There is a compromise procedure, (because yes, the aft back door does have a handle on it), but TC and industry agree that it's less than ideal. It's a tough sell to suggest that back seat C 206 passengers should get specialized egress training, but the compromises of the type suggest more than the minimum should be required. It has the effect of being a disincentive to being a passenger, but it is what it is. Uninformed laypeople in the back of a C 206 on floats is a risk beyond that of present expectations of passenger safety.

Oh, and for my experience, gender has nothing to do with being a good pilot, nothing whatever.... I've flown with female check pilots (as recently as last month) who inspired me with confidence.
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trey kule
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Re: 3 dead, 2 uninjured in NWT

Post by trey kule »

Well, I asked before, but apparently my post disappeared because one is not suppose to even consider pilot incompetence as a possible factor in an accident sequence. It is not always about inexperience, and many inexperienced pilots fly floats very well.

But the other question I asked was did TC not require a different rear door system on the new 206s and put some requirements to remove the middle right seat if Pax were seated in the rear row? I seem to recall some changes to the 206 rear door latches. Anybody flying a new one?
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Re: 3 dead, 2 uninjured in NWT

Post by TailwheelPilot »

PilotDAR, have you ever seen the jettison door arrangement on 152s? I saw that suggested elsewhere for the cargo doors. About the simplest solution I have heard anyone come up with if it would work, never seen the system myself.

TC do not need to fast track anything, but a government grant for NRC to do engineering work and cover the cost of TC certifying an STC in exchange for a low cost STC would be nice. I know NRC has done engineering work for an STC as a grant previously.
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cncpc
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Re: 3 dead, 2 uninjured in NWT

Post by cncpc »

corethatthermal wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:22 pm
( I remember my school age days when an experienced older owner/driver took waaaay too many chances with us 40 + kids seated behind him! We all survived BUT it was an accident waiting to happen !
Was that last week?

Before you flew the inverted float approach behind the power curve into Maguire Lake in Salmon Arm while tweaking yourself to a photo of a Suffolk ewe?

Or the week before?
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Re: 3 dead, 2 uninjured in NWT

Post by PilotDAR »

have you ever seen the jettison door arrangement on 152s? I saw that suggested elsewhere for the cargo doors.
Yes, I know the 152 systems well, it's okay for a 152, though it's not an appropriate solution for a 206. The 206 doors have other latches which would make pulling hinge pins not enough to release the doors. If the aft rear door is operated correctly, it will open with the forward rear door still blocked by the flap. It's not perfect, but it will work. 'Problem is that it is complicated for an uninformed passenger, particularly disoriented after a dunking. And, errant opening of the aft rear door in flight causes a lot of damage to the fuselage. I suppose jettisoning it would do less damage to the fuselage side, but it would wreck the H stab!

It's a compromise design, no question, and, no easy solution....
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pelmet
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Re: 3 dead, 2 uninjured in NWT

Post by pelmet »

corethatthermal wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:22 pm
Some companies will fast track or push a female pilot through for the token rewards of being such an affirmative action company. There were warning signs during training and im sure a lot more signs that are not uncovered.
I hope that this was not the case for this accident. Victory appears to be more in the know about the business and said....
Victory wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:08 am
I have worked for operators where insurance has said it's up to you to decide who flies your airplanes. We trust you enough to not put incompetent people in there. So it's not always the insurance company making that call.
…..although I am not sure if this was the floatplane business.
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Slats
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Re: 3 dead, 2 uninjured in NWT

Post by Slats »

corethatthermal wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:22 pm
Some companies will fast track or push a female pilot through for the token rewards of being such an affirmative action company.
Simpson Air has been hiring female pilots with great success long before it scored brownie points with the social justice warrior types.
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shimmydampner
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Re: 3 dead, 2 uninjured in NWT

Post by shimmydampner »

Checklist wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 10:34 pm
corethatthermal wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:22 pm
Bush flying requires strength, quick intuitive reflexes, assertiveness, lots of confidence, the ability to make solitary decisions and decisions that may go against the grain. A male is better equipped for bush flying to due an inherent higher level of these traits! A female is better equipped for airline flying IF there are no issues with foolish alpha males trying to screw things up AND the female is able to progress to a level of confidence and assertiveness , combined with experience and ability to overcome the negative stereotyping in the industry.
When a person looks at young men and women drivers, women are safer ! Men tend to learn things like driving in a snowstorm ( testosterone effect )
Men say women aren’t as strong. Have you watched the Olympics? Can you throw 400lbs over your head? Go to your local gym for that matter, plenty of women that could out bench most of us.
Leave it to core to descend this topic to the level of anecdotes and logical fallacies.
This accident had nothing to do with the pilot's gender and it was truly not worth even bringing up.
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Re: 3 dead, 2 uninjured in NWT

Post by PilotDAR »

This accident had nothing to do with the pilot's gender
I struggle to think of any accidents in which the pilot's gender could have been a factor. Perhaps there might have been one, but it doesn't come to mind. I certainly know that all of the safety training I have received has never mentioned pilot gender as a factor in aviation safety...

'Best we stick to pilot skills and experience, and aircraft characteristics factors!
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trey kule
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Re: 3 dead, 2 uninjured in NWT

Post by trey kule »

I don’t see any connection at all between gender and competence. There are good and poor pilots of both genders.

The thing that caught my attention was the comments regarding float training for a pilot with a lot of time on type.

That is not a gender issue. But it certainly could well be a management/training issue that should be looked at, not ignored.

And I don’t feel that a 50 hour bush course is necessarily the solution. I have seen lots of pilots with as little as 5 hours on floats (old days), who properly checked out and supervised on type , do just fine.

As a bit of a thread drift, I would like to see the washout stats for the airlines on initial training for pilots that get hired with lots of experience.
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corethatthermal
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Re: 3 dead, 2 uninjured in NWT

Post by corethatthermal »

The below excerpts are from this site: https://fathersmanifesto.net/womenpilots.htm I do NOT agree with all that is written in the site
Please note that even IF we were *able* to replace half the male pilots with female pilots who have an accident rate of 0.39%, which 4.3 times higher than current male pilots at 0.09%, all we would accomplish is to increase the number of airline accidents from 49 to 134, an increase of 2.7 fold.
Furthermore, because male pilots have about twice as many flight hours as female pilots, per hour flown, female pilots have NINE TIMES more airline accidents than male airline pilots.
Kathleen's data shows that one hundred male pilots over their 30 year careers have an average of 2.9 accidents, 0.6 of which are fatal, whereas 100 female pilots have 11.7 accidents, 2.3 of which are fatal.
1. Male and Female Pilots Cause Accidents Differently
Male pilots flying general aviating(private) aircraft in the United States are more likely to crash due to inattention or flawed decision - making, while female pilots are more likely to crash from mishandling the aircraft. These are the results of a study by researchers at the Johns Hopkins University Bloomberg School of Public Health.
The study identifies the differences between male and female pilots in terms of circumstances of the crash and the type of pilots error involved. "Crashes of general aviation aircraft account for 85 percent of all aviation deaths in the United States. The crash rate for male pilots, as for motor vehicle drivers, exceeds that of crashes of female pilots," explains Susan P. Baker. MPH, professor of health policy and management at the Bloomberg School of Public Health. "Because pilot youth and inexperience are established contributors to aviation crashes, we focused on only mature pilots, to determine the gender differences in the reasons for the crash. "
The researchers extracted data for this study from a large research project on pilot aging and flight safety. The data were gathered from general aviation crashes of airplanes and helicopters between 1983 and 1997, involving 144 female pilots and 267 reale pilots aged 40 -63. Female pilots were matched with male pilots in a 1 : 2 ratio, by age, classes of medical and pilot certificates, state or area of crash, and year of crash. Then the circumstances of the crashes and the pilot error involved were categorized and coded without knowledge of pilot gender.
The researchers found that loss of control on landing or takeoff was the most common circumstance for both sexes, leading to 59 percent of female pilots' crashes and 36 percent of males. Experiencing mechanical failure, running out of fuel, and landing the plane with the landing gear up were among the factors more likely with males ,while stalling(失速) was more likely with females.
The majority of the crashes - 95 percent for females and 88 percent for males - involved at least one type of pilot error. Mishandling aircraft kinetics was the most common error for both sexes, but was more common among females( accounting for 81 percent of the crashes)than males (accounting for 48 percent). Males, however, appeared more likely to be guilty of poor decision - making, risk - taking, and inattentiveness, examples of which include misjudging weather and visibility or flying an aircraft with a known defect. Females, though more likely to mishandle or lose control of the aircraft, were generally more careful than their male counterparts
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corethatthermal
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Re: 3 dead, 2 uninjured in NWT

Post by corethatthermal »

Leave it to core to descend this topic to the level of anecdotes and logical fallacies.
This accident had nothing to do with the pilot's gender and it was truly not worth even bringing up. You're a fool.
IF you would look up the data, you may find that woman are 4.3 times more likely to have an aircraft accident than men,,,,,who is the fool then ?
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Re: 3 dead, 2 uninjured in NWT

Post by shimmydampner »

Core, the website you pulled those quotes from also says that 9/11 was an inside job by "the Jews", there is no AIDS in protestant nations, the Holocaust is a "profitable" hoax and that black people should be "exiled" among other things. You'll forgive me if I place absolutely no stock in anything it has to say, and if I think even less of you than I did before on many levels. Not only can you not construct a decent argument, you're actually a very bad person.
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corethatthermal
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Re: 3 dead, 2 uninjured in NWT

Post by corethatthermal »

GENDER DIFFERENCES IN GENERAL AVIATION CRASHES
Study Finds Male Pilots Paid Less Attention; Female Pilots Mishandled Aircraft

Male pilots flying general aviation (private) aircraft in the United States are more likely to crash due to inattention or flawed decision-making, while female pilots are more likely to crash from mishandling the aircraft, according to a study by researchers at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health. The study, published in the May 2001 issue of Aviation, Space, and Environmental Medicine, identifies the differences between male and female pilots in terms of circumstances of the crash and the type of pilot error involved.

"Crashes of general aviation aircraft account for 85 percent of all aviation deaths in the United States. The crash rate for male pilots, as for motor vehicle drivers, exceeds that of crashes of female pilots," explains Susan P. Baker, MPH, professor of health policy and management at the Bloomberg School of Public Health. "Because pilot youth and inexperience are established contributors to aviation crashes, we focused on only mature pilots, to determine the gender differences in the reasons for the crash."

The researchers extracted data for this study from a larger research project on pilot aging and flight safety. The data were gathered from general aviation crashes of airplanes and helicopters between 1983 and 1997, involving 144 female pilots and 287 male pilots aged 40-63. Female pilots were matched with male pilots in a 1:2 ratio, by age, classes of medical and pilot certificates, state or area of crash, and year of crash. Then the circumstances of the crashes and the pilot error involved were categorized and coded without knowledge of pilot gender.

The researchers found that loss of control on landing or takeoff was the most common circumstance for both sexes, leading to 59 percent of female pilots¹ crashes and 36 percent of males¹. Experiencing mechanical failure, running out of fuel, and landing the plane with the landing gear up were among the factors more likely with males, while stalling was more likely with females.

The majority of the crashes --­ 95 percent for females and 88 percent for males --­ involved at least one type of pilot error. Mishandling aircraft kinetics, such as incorrect use of the rudder, poor response to a bounce, or inability to recover from a stall, was the most common error for both sexes, but was more prevalent among females (accounting for 81 percent of the crashes) than males (accounting for 48 percent). Males, however, appeared more likely to be guilty of poor decision-making, risk-taking, and inattentiveness, examples of which include misjudging weather and visibility or flying an aircraft with a known defect. Females, though more likely to mishandle or lose control of the aircraft, were generally more cautious than their more venturesome male counterparts.

Among other differences noted by the study: Older pilots (ages 55-63) made fewer errors than younger pilots (40-49); crashes of male pilots had more serious consequences, including fatalities; and females were slightly more apt to use a shoulder restraint than males.

"Our study reveals several gender differences in the types of pilot error involved in general aviation crashes," concludes Professor Baker. "In order to improve training of pilots, the most common errors ­ mishandling aircraft kinetics, poor decision-making, and inattention ­ merit increased consideration." However, researchers note that there will always be some pilots who make errors, and therefore preventive strategies should go beyond improved pilot training, to include all aspects of the aviation environment.

Funding for this study was provided by the National Institutes of Health and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
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corethatthermal
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Re: 3 dead, 2 uninjured in NWT

Post by corethatthermal »

To sum up the article above :
Male pilots flying general aviation (private) aircraft in the United States are more likely to crash due to inattention or flawed decision-making, while female pilots are more likely to crash from mishandling the aircraft,
When you have a guy crash land a Navajo in Winnipeg due to lack of fuel and a girl roll a float-plane in benign conditions , you have PROOF of the veracity of studies, NOT sexism !
Whether there are more accidents caused by female pilots ( all conditions being equal ) or not is NOT what I have issues with! What I am inquiring is specifically in what areas of flying are women better than men and vise versa and HOW to accommodate the psychological and physiological differences so that there can be NO difference in accident rates due to gender ETC , instead of affirmative actions and shaming of people who inquire!
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Re: 3 dead, 2 uninjured in NWT

Post by PilotDAR »

'Learn something new every day! (Though I should have realized that everything gets studied!)
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ahramin
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Re: 3 dead, 2 uninjured in NWT

Post by ahramin »

Cherry picked anecdotes are proof of nothing and trying to claim otherwise demonstrates a basic lack of sense.

The study quoted on that silly website is 28 years old and did not restrict itself to commercial pilots. The idea that a penis would have prevented this accident would be laughable if it weren't so stupid.
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Re: 3 dead, 2 uninjured in NWT

Post by 7ECA »

Seriously, how is it that these sorts of idiotic sexist comments are considered kosher on the open forum? They add absolutely nothing to the discussion - which has nothing to do with gender, other than the fact that this particular accident just so happened to have a female PIC.
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Re: 3 dead, 2 uninjured in NWT

Post by shimmydampner »

ahramin wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 5:11 pm
Cherry picked anecdotes are proof of nothing and trying to claim otherwise demonstrates a basic lack of sense.

The study quoted on that silly website is 28 years old and did not restrict itself to commercial pilots. The idea that a penis would have prevented this accident would be laughable if it weren't so stupid.
Not to mention that it is essentially a study of correlations based exclusively on gender. Taking those correlations and inferring that gender is somehow causal to the incidents is poor reasoning. Correlation is NOT causation and I think anyone would be very hard pressed to scientifically prove gender as causal to ANY aircraft incident or accident. Similarly, statements such as this:
Bush flying requires strength, quick intuitive reflexes, assertiveness, lots of confidence, the ability to make solitary decisions and decisions that may go against the grain. A male is better equipped for bush flying to due an inherent higher level of these traits! A female is better equipped for airline flying IF there are no issues with foolish alpha males trying to screw things up AND the female is able to progress to a level of confidence and assertiveness , combined with experience and ability to overcome the negative stereotyping in the industry.
have absolutely no basis in fact and are instead nothing more than outdated stereotypes held as one person's beliefs and vomited out and put forth as some sort of weird prerequisites for success.
As it relates to this topic, while I am ok with well thought out speculation and conjecture for the sake of discussion, I am personally not interested in dealing in faulty reasoning, stereotypes, red herrings or the like. Three people died in this accident due to drowning. They drowned because they could not egress the inverted, submerged aircraft. These are facts. I believe the cause of them being unable to egress was poor aircraft design. The aircraft ended up inverted and submerged essentially due to incorrect landing attitude. This is a fact. I believe that pilot inexperience was a significant contributing factor, if not the only factor in not achieving a survivable landing attitude. I would be very surprised if anyone could provide proof that the sex of the pilot caused them to be unable to achieve and maintain the correct landing attitude, therefore I think it's safe to say that it will be nearly impossible to convince me that pilot gender was a cause of this accident.
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Re: 3 dead, 2 uninjured in NWT

Post by RedAndWhiteBaron »

That factual conversations about the demise of Georgian Air, and of UIA752, get deleted (and that's just recently), even entire threads get deleted, but sexist, derogatory, and inflammatory posts from an obvious troll account posted in a thread discussing dead passengers do not,.. wow. Just, wow.

Mods, if this post is deleted, please also delete every inflammatory post in this thread that is sullying the name of the people who died in the crash of subject matter. I find it despicable and beneath basic human decency to bring this up in the context of dead passengers, who were loved, and are missed.
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Re: 3 dead, 2 uninjured in NWT

Post by pelmet »

For me, the real question is not whether one gender or the other is more capable(I go on the assumption that both are equal). The question is...in this day and age, are employers more willing to look the other way and hire the bad apples from certain preferred groups over the good apples from the legislated lesser preferred groups.

We just had a 767 crashed by a member of a preferred group who was knowingly hired with an atrocious training record. That could have been 250 dead if it was a pax flight.
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Re: 3 dead, 2 uninjured in NWT

Post by ReserveTank »

corethatthermal wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:54 pm
To sum up the article above :
Male pilots flying general aviation (private) aircraft in the United States are more likely to crash due to inattention or flawed decision-making, while female pilots are more likely to crash from mishandling the aircraft,
When you have a guy crash land a Navajo in Winnipeg due to lack of fuel and a girl roll a float-plane in benign conditions , you have PROOF of the veracity of studies, NOT sexism !
Whether there are more accidents caused by female pilots ( all conditions being equal ) or not is NOT what I have issues with! What I am inquiring is specifically in what areas of flying are women better than men and vise versa and HOW to accommodate the psychological and physiological differences so that there can be NO difference in accident rates due to gender ETC , instead of affirmative actions and shaming of people who inquire!
You are 100% right, but the problem is the amount of our peers that have been duped into believing that EVERYBODY on the planet is equal. You can lose your career, your possessions, and even your family for carrying a reasonable belief nowadays. Our beloved aviation industry sells this KoolAid as hard as it can. Industry leaders and their political lobbies very well understand the weakness of the average worker and have planned to put us all on B and C scale pay once there's enough "equality." I, for one, don't want to be stuck in a diversity purgatory. I say bring more equality and diversity to the industry to compete with benefits packages of the Boomers and early Gen-Xers. Let the new people dictate what happens your salaries, and most of all, your pension plans. Let's give them what they want. A flood of equality ;)
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Re: 3 dead, 2 uninjured in NWT

Post by RedAndWhiteBaron »

Jesus fecking christ. This thread is about dead passengers, not about gender equality in aviation. I'll happily debate the gender issue in another thread - but not this one. I cannot believe how low people will sink. Please stop.
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Re: 3 dead, 2 uninjured in NWT

Post by flyingnorm »

Can someone please re introduce dignity, respect, and morality to an industry one known for those disciplines?
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