Mid-Air Collision Near Ottawa

[JL]

A good read about how the Mark I eyeball is not so great.

https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/19 ... see_avoid/

[jakeandelwood]

I was flying out in the middle of nowhere once and figured no one was around, i decided to make a call anyway and it turned out there was a helicopter in the area, he responded and said he thought the same thing, that there would be no one else around. I would have never saw him by having a good lookout on its own. Like another poster said, the radio made us both look in the right direction.

[linecrew]

The whole radio discussion got started because someone speculated that improper radio work caused this collision. They are wrong. Improper look out caused this collision. Somebody let their discipline in the maintaining a look out slip and now somebody is dead.

You need to be fair here. Not "somebody" let their discipline slip, both pilots did. If they were both in the circuit and they came together, then neither pilot saw the other. If just one of them had the other in site, evasive action could have been taken.

Also, to dwell on my opinion of using radios, if they were both on the frequency communicating with each other then they would have at least known that there was more than just themselves in the circuit and where exactly their conflicting traffic was.

[Capt. Underpants]

No one has mentioned this so I figured I'd toss it in for info.

Many years ago, one of my students was an ophthalmologist. He told me that one of the reasons it can be hard to spot another aircraft is because when we move our eyes from something inside the cockpit to the outside, often there is nothing defined in that outside view for our eyes to focus upon. When that happens, the eye's focal length tends to remain where it last was, such as the distance to the instruments in front of us. At that focal length, another aircraft has to be very close to be seen. In time, the eye will begin to extend focal length in an effort to find something solid but that can take precious seconds we may not have. He suggested that the best fix for this was to look down to the ground to find something solid to focus on, which works great in VMC but not so great in between layers of stratus cloud.

FWIW

[Heliian]

Way back when i did pilot training, we were taught how to scan. Does this still happen?

https://www.faa.gov/pilots/safety/pilot ... vision.pdf

[rookiepilot]

Curious about something: Beyond scanning.

What is good airmanship in a fast cabin class twin, approaching a circuit full of slow 150's or the like?

Forget that radio. Let's assume no one even has one.


Second question. Did that airmanship likely happen here?

[B208]

The whole radio discussion got started because someone speculated that improper radio work caused this collision. They are wrong. Improper look out caused this collision. Somebody let their discipline in the maintaining a look out slip and now somebody is dead.

You need to be fair here. Not "somebody" let their discipline slip, both pilots did. If they were both in the circuit and they came together, then neither pilot saw the other. If just one of them had the other in site, evasive action could have been taken.

Also, to dwell on my opinion of using radios, if they were both on the frequency communicating with each other then they would have at least known that there was more than just themselves in the circuit and where exactly their conflicting traffic was.

A low wing aircraft that operates in the 120 kt range of speed collides with a high wing wing aircraft that operates in the 90 kt range. Both aircraft are on the downwind, the low wing aircraft has severe damage to the under carriage and the high wing aircraft lost its wing. Odds are only one person’s lookout was faulty.

Odds are also that they were both on the AFT and that radios didn’t save their assess.

[linecrew]

The whole radio discussion got started because someone speculated that improper radio work caused this collision. They are wrong. Improper look out caused this collision. Somebody let their discipline in the maintaining a look out slip and now somebody is dead.

You need to be fair here. Not "somebody" let their discipline slip, both pilots did. If they were both in the circuit and they came together, then neither pilot saw the other. If just one of them had the other in site, evasive action could have been taken.

Also, to dwell on my opinion of using radios, if they were both on the frequency communicating with each other then they would have at least known that there was more than just themselves in the circuit and where exactly their conflicting traffic was.

A low wing aircraft that operates in the 120 kt range of speed collides with a high wing wing aircraft that operates in the 90 kt range. Both aircraft are on the downwind, the low wing aircraft has severe damage to the under carriage and the high wing aircraft lost its wing. Odds are only one person’s lookout was faulty.

Odds are also that they were both on the AFT and that radios didn’t save their assess.

How about we wait for the official report to come out. I say this only because I heard that it happened differently from what you heard.

[B208]

You need to be fair here. Not "somebody" let their discipline slip, both pilots did. If they were both in the circuit and they came together, then neither pilot saw the other. If just one of them had the other in site, evasive action could have been taken.

Also, to dwell on my opinion of using radios, if they were both on the frequency communicating with each other then they would have at least known that there was more than just themselves in the circuit and where exactly their conflicting traffic was.

A low wing aircraft that operates in the 120 kt range of speed collides with a high wing wing aircraft that operates in the 90 kt range. Both aircraft are on the downwind, the low wing aircraft has severe damage to the under carriage and the high wing aircraft lost its wing. Odds are only one person’s lookout was faulty.

Odds are also that they were both on the AFT and that radios didn’t save their assess.

How about we wait for the official report to come out. I say this only because I heard that it happened differently from what you heard.

That sounds like a reasonable approach.

[broken_slinky]

Looks like TSB released the report. Blames it mostly on no radio calls coming from the Cessna. Also looking to mandate flight recorders in GA aircraft.

https://copanational.org/en/2019/05/02/ ... t-20190502

[rookiepilot]

Looks like TSB released the report. Blames it mostly on no radio calls coming from the Cessna. Also looking to mandate flight recorders in GA aircraft.

https://copanational.org/en/2019/05/02/ ... t-20190502

Respectfully, that's ridiculous, at least the radio portion.

[Aviatard]

Looks like TSB released the report. Blames it mostly on no radio calls coming from the Cessna. Also looking to mandate flight recorders in GA aircraft.

https://copanational.org/en/2019/05/02/ ... t-20190502

Respectfully, that's ridiculous

Which part is ridiculous? The lack of radio calls or flight recorders?

[rookiepilot]

Looks like TSB released the report. Blames it mostly on no radio calls coming from the Cessna. Also looking to mandate flight recorders in GA aircraft.

https://copanational.org/en/2019/05/02/ ... t-20190502

Respectfully, that's ridiculous

Which part is ridiculous? The lack of radio calls or flight recorders?

Well, I partially agree with B208. Radio calls are important but secondary to lookout. If radio calls are considered that primary to the TSB, why are NORDO aircraft even legal?

[Heliian]

The TSB recommends flight recorders after every accident that doesn't have one. It's not ridiculous, the technology is readily available and the costs can be minimized. I see their point, why speculate about what happened all the time when they could get better factual data from a recorder. That is the role of the TSB, they're just doing their job.

[linecrew]

If radio calls are considered that primary to the TSB, why are NORDO aircraft even legal?

Basically because the TSB can't tell TC what to do otherwise it likely would be. I'm sure the TSB's primary objective is to minimize risk as much as possible and obviously flying NORDO adds an additional risk factor to flying.

[pelmet]

Bottom line....if the Cessna pilot had taken the time to use his installed radio, he'd probably be alive today. Something to think about.

[youhavecontrol]

I would never consider the visual scan as a saviour of mid-air collisions. If you've ever flown a low-wing twin at an ATF airport, you're probably well aware there are a ton of blind spots when joining the circuit and while a scan is possible, it takes a lot of concentration. While I make sure to scan as best as I can, I still get surprised by the occasional NORDO aircraft, which thankfully has never been dangerously close, but still unsettling to spot when you weren't expecting it.

Let's be honest, during cruise you're not constantly looking outside, and even when you are, you're probably looking down at the roads, at the weather, the nearby towns, lakes, etc.. monitoring your track (or staring at a Magenta line, you lazy bugger). See and avoid seems to work best when you're actually expecting to see something you need to avoid.

Ever tried to spot an aircraft during sunrise or sunset? What about on a hazy day? How about when the sky is overcast and there's snow on the ground and the opposing aircraft is white? Even with flight following, when Centre points out traffic nearby, I'm alarmed at how hard it can be to spot at times, especially those thin, sleek little GA aircraft.

NORDO seems insane to me.

[A346Dude]

"Neither pilot saw the other aircraft in time to avoid a mid-air collision, partly owing to the inherent limitations of the see-and-avoid principle. Relying solely on visual detection increases the risk of collision while in uncontrolled airspace. Pilots are strongly encouraged to broadcast their intentions while in an ATF area in accordance with TC's VFR communications procedures, even though they are not mandatory."

Well we waited for the report, and it doesn't get much clearer.

Proper radio work likely would have prevented this accident.

[rookiepilot]

If radio calls are considered that primary to the TSB, why are NORDO aircraft even legal?

Basically because the TSB can't tell TC what to do otherwise it likely would be. I'm sure the TSB's primary objective is to minimize risk as much as possible and obviously flying NORDO adds an additional risk factor to flying.

Don't see why TC won't mandate handhelds....anyway I suppose irrelevant to this accident. Wonder if the radio wasn't working....seemed that wasn't clear? Possible if it wasn't transmitting, how would the pilot even know?

[B208]

Looks like TSB released the report. Blames it mostly on no radio calls coming from the Cessna. Also looking to mandate flight recorders in GA aircraft.

https://copanational.org/en/2019/05/02/ ... t-20190502

So, pilot joining circuit doesn’t hear any radio calls, figures he’s alone, doesn’t bother doing a proper lookout, turns downwind, runs over other aircraft.