St. Catherines Flying Club - lawsuit re October 16, 2016 fatal crash

[digits_]

Greed? Let me tell you what's greedy.

The greed comes from flight schools that can stuff 2 students and an instructor in a plane for a trip to Florida and charge dual for a trip not on any PPL Syllabus.

There is ZERO purpose in Pre PPL students going on such a trip. Zero. Inexcusable.

CPL, 2 or 3 taking off for some cross border experience? No problem. I did. But then no instructor is involved. School can't milk the same amount of money.

There is also ZERO reason for an instructor to ever go beyond an oral brief for a cross border flight. It's not that complicated once paperwork is done.

Did those students pay for the instructors food and hotel too?

Good deal. Until everyone was killed.

TC should crack down on that kind of greed. Stick strictly to the syllabus for PPL anyway -- or lose your OC.

Students are vulnerable. They don't know anything. TC should protect them -- first.

Zero tolerance.

You who disagree --- think this kind of accident is GOOD for the GA image? GA is mortibound. Give your heads a shake.

My opinion on this incident hasn't changed, nor will it.

Once more: trips like these are NOT the big money makers for flying schools/clubs. They have way more risk and one mechanical breakdown throws your profit margin out of the window. Local trips and trips in the circuit are way more profitable.

I've been involved in multiple schools who got requests from their students to do international trips. None of them were very happy with it, but allowed it anyway as it is good experience for students.

Limiting trips like these to CPL students only is ridiculous. A Canadian PPL allows you to fly around the world in a Canadian registered airplane. So actually doing international long distance trips is perfectly valid training. Some (most?) pilots will never fly commecially, yet could be interested in longer trips for fun. Kudos to the flying club and FTUs who offer an incentive to do so.

While an international flight is not complicated once the paperwork is done, going through the whole process and just the idea that you are flying in a different country can scare people off. If they are uncomfortable doing it by themselves, then taking friends of an instructor along for training is an exteremely wise decision.

I'm worried this accident might trigger more knee jerk reactions like yours. And that would ruin a great experience for many student pilots.

[rookiepilot]

I'd be wary of extending that assumption as a get of jail card for wilful misconduct.

This is more of the same silliness. The rank and file members of the St. Catharine's Flying Club didn't willfully misconduct anything. Your hyperbole is drawing attention away from what really went wrong.

I'm not referring to this case specifically.

[rookiepilot]

I've been involved in multiple schools who got requests from their students to do international trips. None of them were very happy with it, but allowed it anyway as it is good experience for students.

Limiting trips like these to CPL students only is ridiculous. A Canadian PPL allows you to fly around the world in a Canadian registered airplane. So actually doing international long distance trips is perfectly valid training. Some (most?) pilots will never fly commecially, yet could be interested in longer trips for fun. Kudos to the flying club and FTUs who offer an incentive to do so.

While an international flight is not complicated once the paperwork is done, going through the whole process and just the idea that you are flying in a different country can scare people off. If they are uncomfortable doing it by themselves, then taking friends of an instructor along for training is an exteremely wise decision.

I'm worried this accident might trigger more knee jerk reactions like yours. And that would ruin a great experience for many student pilots.

Disagree across the board, sorry. No place for pre PPL students. Afterwards, NP.

If a PPL can't cross the border without a hand hold, my eyes roll, but it's more appropriate.

This accident is bad for aviation. On that we agree ---

[digits_]

If a PPL can't cross the border without a hand hold, my eyes roll, but it's more appropriate.

How do you expect them to be confident in doing it, if they have never been shown how to do it? I'm sure a lot of people can handle it, but for those who don't, there is nothing wrong with asking for help or training in areas they aren't proficient in.

If a student nails all the PPL exercises at 35 hours and wants to spend 5 hours on a long(er) international flight, what could possibly be wrong with that?

This accident is bad for aviation.

It is terrible for the people involved, but it is only "bad for aviation" if we let it be. People made mistakes that allowed this accident to happen, as discussed previously in this thread. Allowing international training flights, is not one of those mistakes.

This accident is bad for aviation. On that we agree and there should be zero tolerance for cowboy operations, in any regard.

Agreed.

[rookiepilot]

If a PPL can't cross the border without a hand hold, my eyes roll, but it's more appropriate.

How do you expect them to be confident in doing it, if they have never been shown how to do it? I'm sure a lot of people can handle it, but for those who don't, there is nothing wrong with asking for help or training in areas they aren't proficient in.

The airplane doesn't know it's in US airspace.

I think from my own experience it can be well handled with a thorough ground briefing, doing the pre flight customs routine, and hopefully the new pilot is comfortable somewhat talking to ATC -- I'd much rather be doing it that way to start off down there -- getting a proper US briefing coming and going, and navigating.

Some schools may not be comfortable without an instructor along, that's different. Still, better to do extra night work, extra hood time, extra diversions or emergencies (I think i did all of the above ) pre ppl than an experience trip.

My own amateur opinion -- I learned a lot more doing my own first US trip without an instructor. One can always go with a more experienced pilot.

[Aviatard]

My own amateur opinion -- I learned a lot more doing my own first US trip without an instructor. One can always go with a more experienced pilot.

So, like an instructor then?

[photofly]

I'm worried this accident might trigger more knee jerk reactions like yours. And that would ruin a great experience for many student pilots.

Dying in the back seat of a Piper Cherokee in bad weather with no competent pilot in either front seat is a really great training experience for many student pilots?

I must have missed something. Which chapter of the Flight Training manual is that lesson?

[rookiepilot]

My own amateur opinion -- I learned a lot more doing my own first US trip without an instructor. One can always go with a more experienced pilot.

So, like an instructor then?

Uhhhhh....don't get us started on that conversation.

[photofly]

The problem with this as a training scenario is not that it crosses an international border. The problem is that a dozen hours flying in a straight line isn’t necessary or helpful to get a PPL. A trip from St Catharine’s to Saskatoon would be just as inappropriate.

I don’t have any objection to flying clubs doing away trips, or student pilots going on them (if we could please just arrange for the clubs not to kill any of the students on the way back, it can’t be that hard, can it?) - just don’t put the student in the left seat, their own instructor in the right, and sell it as PPL training.

[digits_]

The problem with this as a training scenario is not that it crosses an international border. The problem is that a dozen hours flying in a straight line isn’t necessary or helpful to get a PPL. A trip from St Catharine’s to Saskatoon would be just as inappropriate.

I don’t have any objection to flying clubs doing away trips, or student pilots going on them (if we could please just arrange for the clubs not to kill any of the students on the way back, it can’t be that hard, can it?) - just don’t put the student in the left seat and sell it as PPL training.

Who says they sell it as PPL training or skills necessary to get a PPL? Just because you go on a flight before you have a PPL, doesn't mean it is considered part of the mandatory PPL curriculum. The flight training manual covers the exercises you need to master, but as far as I know it is not an exhaustive list. You can always do something extra.

[photofly]

Who says they sell it as PPL training

Because they put the fucking instructor in the right seat and the fucking instructors’ fucking PPL student in the left seat. What the @#$! else is it going to fucking be?

[rookiepilot]

Who says they sell it as PPL training or skills necessary to get a PPL? Just because you go on a flight before you have a PPL, doesn't mean it is considered part of the mandatory PPL curriculum. The flight training manual covers the exercises you need to master, but as far as I know it is not an exhaustive list. You can always do something extra.

Paging Hedley........

[digits_]

Who says they sell it as PPL training

Because they put the fucking instructor in the right seat and the fucking instructors’ fucking PPL student in the left seat. What the @#$! else is it going to fucking be?

It is flight training to get experience flying long(er) cross country flights across international borders. While it is not required for PPL, it is valuable experience for a student, especially if (s)he has the desire to fly internationally later as well.

Is it required to get checked out on multiple airplane types for your PPL? No. Yet a lot of students have more than one airplane type in their logbook before they get their PPL.
Is it required to fly floats and wheels pre PPL? No, yet it happens.
Is it required to fly aerobatics pre PPL? No, yet it happens.
Is it required to fly to the states or do 4/5/10/20 hour cross countries? No, yet it happens.
Why does it happen? Because students want to do it. Is that dangerous? No. Is that illegal? No. Should that be forbidden? NO!

If the flying school claims those longer trips are mandatory and necessary to get your PPL license, then something's wrong. If they are offering it to their students as a way to experience longer flights, optionally, then there is nothing wrong with that.

And no matter what flight training you do: circuits, night, ifr, ppl, cpl, type checkouts or long distance navigation flights, it is always mandatory that you use a qualified pilot/instructor for that.

[photofly]

It is flight training to get experience ...

It shouldn’t be any kind of training at all, because that’s not where pre-PPL students need to focus their attention.

Lots of things are valuable experience. Best to use the time and hours to get the PPL and get the other experiences once you’re a licenced pilot. There’s no rule that prevents you from coming back for more experience after you have your ppl.

Maybe by that time these students would have had the good sense to refuse the night IMC flight with the woefully under-equipped and prepared instructor. If they’d come back commercial then they’d still be alive.

[pelmet]

Of course it's incorporated. This "members should be bankrupted" is just too silly for words. Even by AvCanada's standards of silliness. Ontario Corporations Act, section 122:

122 A member shall not, as such, be held answerable or responsible for any act, default, obligation or liability of the corporation or for any engagement, claim, payment, loss, injury, transaction, matter or thing relating to or connected with the corporation. R.S.O. 1990, c. C.38, s. 122.

The members are not liable, end of story.

I'd be wary of extending that assumption as a get of jail card for wilful misconduct.

This is more of the same silliness. The rank and file members of the St. Catharine's Flying Club didn't willfully misconduct anything. Your hyperbole is drawing attention away from what really went wrong.

Thanks Photofly,

Your knowledge of how things work in this case is extremely useful. My point has been made and now it is my turn to leave the debate.

Hopefully I am more successful than this from page 3...

I'm done here.

...but who knows.

[rookiepilot]

Case was settled out of court. Obviously some degree of liability was agreed upon.



https://pennrecord.com/stories/51180294 ... -5-million