Air Canada tailstrike in Hong Kong

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Eric Janson
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Re: Air Canada tailstrike in Hong Kong

Post by Eric Janson »

pelmet wrote: Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:06 pm Bottom line....be ready to advance the thrust. Autothrottle all the way to touchdown guys could be less ready to quickly add thrust. Pulling the control column aft as an only response to a decreasing performance shear will bring the tail closer to the ground. Reduced flaps on approach may be helpful on a long runway like the ones at HKG.
Sadly we now have a generation of Pilots who are afraid to turn automatics "off", companies that want no/minimal manual flying and trainers who are lost outside the books.

Seen all of the above. The Blind leading the Blind.

This is my personal experience and not a comment on this incident.
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Re: Air Canada tailstrike in Hong Kong

Post by Old fella »

Eric Janson wrote: Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:17 pm
pelmet wrote: Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:06 pm Bottom line....be ready to advance the thrust. Autothrottle all the way to touchdown guys could be less ready to quickly add thrust. Pulling the control column aft as an only response to a decreasing performance shear will bring the tail closer to the ground. Reduced flaps on approach may be helpful on a long runway like the ones at HKG.
Sadly we now have a generation of Pilots who are afraid to turn automatics "off", companies that want no/minimal manual flying and trainers who are lost outside the books.

Seen all of the above. The Blind leading the Blind.

This is my personal experience and not a comment on this incident.
The ole “stick and rudder” skills are missing in this newer generation of airline pilots is what you are seeing from your own observations.
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Re: Air Canada tailstrike in Hong Kong

Post by Eric Janson »

Old fella wrote: Thu Dec 20, 2018 9:27 pm
Eric Janson wrote: Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:17 pm
pelmet wrote: Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:06 pm Bottom line....be ready to advance the thrust. Autothrottle all the way to touchdown guys could be less ready to quickly add thrust. Pulling the control column aft as an only response to a decreasing performance shear will bring the tail closer to the ground. Reduced flaps on approach may be helpful on a long runway like the ones at HKG.
Sadly we now have a generation of Pilots who are afraid to turn automatics "off", companies that want no/minimal manual flying and trainers who are lost outside the books.

Seen all of the above. The Blind leading the Blind.

This is my personal experience and not a comment on this incident.
The ole “stick and rudder” skills are missing in this newer generation of airline pilots is what you are seeing from your own observations.
A lot of people don't seem to know what a rudder is or how to use it correctly or even at all.
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Re: Air Canada tailstrike in Hong Kong

Post by Old fella »

Eric Janson wrote: Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:57 am
Old fella wrote: Thu Dec 20, 2018 9:27 pm
Eric Janson wrote: Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:17 pm

Sadly we now have a generation of Pilots who are afraid to turn automatics "off", companies that want no/minimal manual flying and trainers who are lost outside the books.

Seen all of the above. The Blind leading the Blind.

This is my personal experience and not a comment on this incident.
The ole “stick and rudder” skills are missing in this newer generation of airline pilots is what you are seeing from your own observations.
A lot of people don't seem to know what a rudder is or how to use it correctly or even at all.
Is it a product of having very low flying time pilots say with 200-300 hrs TT in cockpits of NB/WB airliners.
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Re: Air Canada tailstrike in Hong Kong

Post by C.W.E. »

Is it a product of having very low flying time pilots say with 200-300 hrs TT in cockpits of NB/WB airliners.
It is 100% the lack of proper basic flight training by the flying training schools.

Then to add insult to the problem the flight test people are so incompetent they pass the students and give them a license.

The whole system is a sad joke and has been for decades.
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Re: Air Canada tailstrike in Hong Kong

Post by EPR »

So I'm not the only one that cringes every time I watch those x-wind landings that get posted to YouTube, you know the ones where the aircraft's land without ever having any x-wind correction at touchdown or even during their swerving roll-outs?
I'm told there's no need to kick-out the crab or even roll aileron into the wind with the heavies, but I also rarely see the turbo-props using proper x-wind techniques in these videos either, just seems wrong to me! Are these dramatic landings a product of never having learned the proper x-wind technique in the first place? :?
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Re: Air Canada tailstrike in Hong Kong

Post by fish4life »

Heard a rumour it was the FO’s first landing, any truth to it?
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Re: Air Canada tailstrike in Hong Kong

Post by pelmet »

EPR wrote: Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:04 pm I'm told there's no need to kick-out the crab or even roll aileron into the wind with the heavies,
I think you will find that Boeing has as many as three techniques for crosswind landings in some of their aircraft including landing in a crab. However, it would be wise to not try this on a dry runway, especially in a significant crosswind or else you might get an 'interesting' rollout.

Even the largest of aircraft can get a very noticeable wing-down tendency if aileron is not held into wind during the takeoff/landing roll in a significant crosswind, although whether or not that applies to all types, I don't know. What applies to one type may not apply to another.
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Re: Air Canada tailstrike in Hong Kong

Post by Eric Janson »

EPR wrote: Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:04 pm So I'm not the only one that cringes every time I watch those x-wind landings that get posted to YouTube, you know the ones where the aircraft's land without ever having any x-wind correction at touchdown or even during their swerving roll-outs?
I'm told there's no need to kick-out the crab or even roll aileron into the wind with the heavies, but I also rarely see the turbo-props using proper x-wind techniques in these videos either, just seems wrong to me! Are these dramatic landings a product of never having learned the proper x-wind technique in the first place? :?
Yes - the Blind leading the Blind.

You land large jets the same way you land anything else - the basics of flying don't change with aircraft Type.

We've had this discussion on a different thread - crabbed landings without using the rudder to align the aircraft with the runway is poor technique imho.

It's part of the continual Dumbing Down of Aviation.
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Re: Air Canada tailstrike in Hong Kong

Post by C.W.E. »

You land large jets the same way you land anything else - the basics of flying don't change with aircraft Type.
It is incredible that so many pilots do not understand the basics of flying.

Any side ways drift on touch down produces a force sideways on the landing gear and thus the whole airplane, the more angle between the airplane heading and the runway the higher the sideways force.

Proper airplane handling will eliminate these forces so why land going sideways down the runway????
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Re: Air Canada tailstrike in Hong Kong

Post by EPR »

Eric Janson wrote: Mon Dec 24, 2018 11:02 am
EPR wrote: Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:04 pm So I'm not the only one that cringes every time I watch those x-wind landings that get posted to YouTube, you know the ones where the aircraft's land without ever having any x-wind correction at touchdown or even during their swerving roll-outs?
I'm told there's no need to kick-out the crab or even roll aileron into the wind with the heavies, but I also rarely see the turbo-props using proper x-wind techniques in these videos either, just seems wrong to me! Are these dramatic landings a product of never having learned the proper x-wind technique in the first place? :?
Yes - the Blind leading the Blind.

You land large jets the same way you land anything else - the basics of flying don't change with aircraft Type.

We've had this discussion on a different thread - crabbed landings without using the rudder to align the aircraft with the runway is poor technique imho.

It's part of the continual Dumbing Down of Aviation.
Ok, that's what I thought, but having never flown the big metal I didn't know for sure. I guess all those excruciatingly poor x-wind landings are a result of never learning the proper technique in the first place, which I find so surprising! :shock:
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Re: Air Canada tailstrike in Hong Kong

Post by fish4life »

EPR wrote: Mon Dec 24, 2018 12:51 pm
Eric Janson wrote: Mon Dec 24, 2018 11:02 am
EPR wrote: Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:04 pm So I'm not the only one that cringes every time I watch those x-wind landings that get posted to YouTube, you know the ones where the aircraft's land without ever having any x-wind correction at touchdown or even during their swerving roll-outs?
I'm told there's no need to kick-out the crab or even roll aileron into the wind with the heavies, but I also rarely see the turbo-props using proper x-wind techniques in these videos either, just seems wrong to me! Are these dramatic landings a product of never having learned the proper x-wind technique in the first place? :?
Yes - the Blind leading the Blind.

You land large jets the same way you land anything else - the basics of flying don't change with aircraft Type.

We've had this discussion on a different thread - crabbed landings without using the rudder to align the aircraft with the runway is poor technique imho.

It's part of the continual Dumbing Down of Aviation.
Ok, that's what I thought, but having never flown the big metal I didn't know for sure. I guess all those excruciatingly poor x-wind landings are a result of never learning the proper technique in the first place, which I find so surprising! :shock:
Why learn proper technique when you can start by flying big shiny metal......
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Re: Air Canada tailstrike in Hong Kong

Post by pelmet »

fish4life wrote: Fri Dec 21, 2018 9:12 pm Heard a rumour it was the FO’s first landing, any truth to it?
It is true. Wonder if he is a new-hire as I heard some are going on the 777. Preliminary report here....

https://www.thb.gov.hk/aaia/doc/Aircraf ... (rev)e.pdf
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Re: Air Canada tailstrike in Hong Kong

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Re: Air Canada tailstrike in Hong Kong

Post by Inverted2 »

Doesn't list the first officers experience. Could be a 2000 hr wonder new hire but who knows. Strange they touched down on the right main gear first with a left hand crosswind. Not the way I was taught to do crosswind landings.
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Re: Air Canada tailstrike in Hong Kong

Post by LennyLeonard »

What happens to the FO in this case? I would imagine he hasn't flown since and will probably be retrained, if he has not already been done so?
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Re: Air Canada tailstrike in Hong Kong

Post by C.W.E. »

If it was the FO flying where was the Captain?
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Re: Air Canada tailstrike in Hong Kong

Post by Eric Janson »

Inverted2 wrote: Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:57 pm Doesn't list the first officers experience. Could be a 2000 hr wonder new hire but who knows. Strange they touched down on the right main gear first with a left hand crosswind. Not the way I was taught to do crosswind landings.
I don't fly the 777 but I understand it is quite sensitive in roll.

The preliminary report sounds like this was a case of PIO (Pilot Induced Oscillation).

For those not familiar with PIO it looks like this:-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02ddnGzxNZs

No mention of windshear.
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Re: Air Canada tailstrike in Hong Kong

Post by altiplano »

the aircraft entered into series of minor lateral roll deviations followed by a pronounced roll first to the left and then to the right,
What caused the pronounced roll left and right that the pilot needed large inputs to attempt to correct for?
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Re: Air Canada tailstrike in Hong Kong

Post by pelmet »

Inverted2 wrote: Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:57 pm Strange they touched down on the right main gear first with a left hand crosswind. Not the way I was taught to do crosswind landings.
Probable not what was planned in terms of touchdown attitude.
Eric Janson wrote: Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:08 pm I don't fly the 777 but I understand it is quite sensitive in roll.

The preliminary report sounds like this was a case of PIO (Pilot Induced Oscillation).

For those not familiar with PIO it looks like this:-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02ddnGzxNZs

No mention of windshear.
The approach in the video was in quite turbulent conditions leading to required counteracting control inputs. The turbulence encountered in HKG is unknown but could easily have been significantly less.
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