Air Tindi Flight Missing

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Illya Kuryakin
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Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing

Post by Illya Kuryakin » Fri Mar 08, 2019 9:55 am

Roadrunnersmother wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 6:33 pm
Meatservo wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 6:13 pm
Illya Kuryakin, what are the three recent fatal accidents you are talking about? Other than this latest one, I can only think of the Caravan that crashed several years ago. You know, the one where the pilot was high on drugs. What's the third?
There was no recent third fatal accident, lllya kuryakin spreading more BS on this forum.
Pity you take it personally there, but was there not a Twin Otter accident not all that long ago. Caravan with the pilot doped out of his mind doesn’t speak volumes on company culture to you? Perhaps it should?
Illya
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Maynard
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Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing

Post by Maynard » Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:03 am

Illya Kuryakin wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 9:55 am
Roadrunnersmother wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 6:33 pm
Meatservo wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 6:13 pm
Illya Kuryakin, what are the three recent fatal accidents you are talking about? Other than this latest one, I can only think of the Caravan that crashed several years ago. You know, the one where the pilot was high on drugs. What's the third?
There was no recent third fatal accident, lllya kuryakin spreading more BS on this forum.
Pity you take it personally there, but was there not a Twin Otter accident not all that long ago. Caravan with the pilot doped out of his mind doesn’t speak volumes on company culture to you? Perhaps it should?
Illya
I think you're confusing the Arctic Sunwest Twin Otter that crashed in yellowknife, not Tindi.
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YYZSaabGuy
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Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing

Post by YYZSaabGuy » Fri Mar 08, 2019 3:27 pm

Maynard wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:03 am
I think you're confusing the Arctic Sunwest Twin Otter that crashed in yellowknife, not Tindi.
Maynard's correct. The third Air Tindi accident over the last few years did not, fortunately, involve any fatalities:
http://bst-tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-repor ... 4w0181.asp

The Arctic Sunwest accident, for those interested, is covered here: http://www.bst-tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-r ... 1w0144.asp
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Illya Kuryakin
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Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing

Post by Illya Kuryakin » Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:25 pm

Wrong airline. I’ll buy that. Hardly qualifies as “spreading BS ....”. That’s just the friendly avcanada way.
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Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing

Post by cjfly » Tue Apr 30, 2019 3:02 pm

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goingnowherefast
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Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing

Post by goingnowherefast » Tue Apr 30, 2019 5:02 pm

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/ts ... -1.5117571

So they weren't below the minimum IFR altitude intentionally. Speculation was completely wrong.
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youhavecontrol
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Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing

Post by youhavecontrol » Tue Apr 30, 2019 5:08 pm

"According to Jeremy Warkentin, technical investigator for the TSB, one attitude indicator wasn't functioning when the flight took off, but the crew flew anyway. The second indicator failed 84 seconds before impact."

Oh geez
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Roadrunnersmother
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Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing

Post by Roadrunnersmother » Tue Apr 30, 2019 5:33 pm

Did these guys have instrument ratings?
In the ground 84 seconds after no attitude indicators. Mind blowing they couldn't keep in air with rest of instrumentation.
Must be more to it than this. Basic altimeter and DG for straight and level in IMC will keep you alive.
Quite the training program this air tindi has.
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Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing

Post by mbav8r » Tue Apr 30, 2019 5:36 pm

That’s extremely disappointing to read.
I once had a vacuum pump fail, the CP wanted me to fly it to a maintenance base after the sun had already gone down. I told him no and after several back and forth and threats of firing me, I still said no. He hung up on me, then phoned back and demanded I be airborne the second the sun was up.
I flew the next morning, day vmc and guess what, the other vacuum pump quit 10 mins into my flight, one might wonder what the odds of that happening are. Pretty good if the cause is plugged filters and not mechanical failure. Needless to say, I made sure the CP knew he tried to kill me the night before, didn’t change him at all though, had several more run ins with him.

To this topic, it’s been awhile, anyone know if this aircraft had vacuum instruments?
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Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing

Post by CpnCrunch » Tue Apr 30, 2019 6:01 pm

Roadrunnersmother wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 5:33 pm
Did these guys have instrument ratings?
In the ground 84 seconds after no attitude indicators. Mind blowing they couldn't keep in air with rest of instrumentation.
Must be more to it than this. Basic altimeter and DG for straight and level in IMC will keep you alive.
Quite the training program this air tindi has.
I suspect when the AI fails in real life, it's a bit different from the instructor putting a post-it note over the AI. And the instrument rating flight test in Canada doesn't even test partial panel (although the IPC does).
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Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing

Post by MarkyMark90 » Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:45 pm

Sad to see this... Lost of both attitude indicator shouldn't lead an aircraft descend as a rocket to the ground...

It's a good reminder for all of us to challenge ourselves and keep asking us the question "What would I do if ..." while up there in the flight levels.
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C.W.E.
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Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing

Post by C.W.E. » Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:01 pm

How is it possible for the training industry and the regulator to allow the industry to have gotten to the stage where something like this can happen, assuming of course the latest info is correct?
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Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing

Post by Donald » Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:11 pm

mbav8r wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 5:36 pm

To this topic, it’s been awhile, anyone know if this aircraft had vacuum instruments?
Rumour on the street is that the FO instruments were steam driven and the captain’s were efis displays. Given that rumour, it’s possible that when the captain’s display failed, they might have had NO instruments, or just the very minimum standby instruments.

The other rumour, that bothers me greatly, is that the FO instruments had been faulty for some time. Not “discovered on the taxi out” of the accident flight. Supposedly crews had been complaining (snagging?) about them, but obviously to no avail.

Wouldn’t shock me to have Tindi vilify the crew when they likely pushed them out the door. After all, who wants to call Ekati at 7am to cancel or delay their crew change flight?
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Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing

Post by Old fella » Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:25 pm

Lost an inverter climbing out of YDF dusk departure many years back, passed control over to right seat guy while I got inverter 2 up and going. Can’t remember how long that took but wx was decent , however if the right seat vacuum AI was u/s with a low vis and ceiling departure possibly would have made a few interesting moments for sure. I am not speculating on this particular accident though.
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Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing

Post by rigpiggy » Tue Apr 30, 2019 10:07 pm

There but for the grace of God, go I.....trying to fly partial panel with instruments sort of working is difficult to the extreme. However this is why I am angry at TC that a 3rd AI, isn't required in SEIFR/MIFR airplanes in commercial service, and why they insist that we have a T+B, but I can'tput a G5 or equivalent with a battery backup.
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Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing

Post by goingnowherefast » Wed May 01, 2019 2:23 am

Donald wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:11 pm
The other rumour, that bothers me greatly, is that the FO instruments had been faulty for some time. Not “discovered on the taxi out” of the accident flight. Supposedly crews had been complaining (snagging?) about them, but obviously to no avail.
If this proves to be true, then this could be an eye opening investigation. This sort of crap is common in the 703 world. Though typically not with something as important as primary flight instruments.

I remember a very similar situation years ago for a different 703 company, but with prop heat and respectable icing conditions. Captain was a get-er-done type and hesitant to say no. I nicely told him that I wasn't getting in the airplane. We sure heard about that.
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Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing

Post by valleyboy » Wed May 01, 2019 5:52 am

possibly an argument for standardizing equipment and crew rules. When I flew 2 otter under 703 always had a stby horizon. Too many end runs is 703 ops. I find it totally ironic that the largely entry level of aviation operations operates under the slackest rules.
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Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing

Post by daedalusx » Wed May 01, 2019 12:09 pm

Its too bad. Those new all in one digital EADI are dirt cheap and they offer so much ... How long until those become mandatory like TAWS/EGPWS/TCAS ?

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/ ... cfer=13982
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Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing

Post by TheRealMcCoy » Wed May 01, 2019 1:14 pm

Roadrunnersmother wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 5:33 pm
Did these guys have instrument ratings?
In the ground 84 seconds after no attitude indicators. Mind blowing they couldn't keep in air with rest of instrumentation.
Must be more to it than this. Basic altimeter and DG for straight and level in IMC will keep you alive.
Quite the training program this air tindi has.
Dude, or dudette, just stop. What an exceptionally rude and cunty thing to say towards two dead men.
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Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing

Post by godsrcrazy » Wed May 01, 2019 6:01 pm

Amazes how people think this would be such an easy situation that could have been prevented with a turn bank indictor and a altimeter. For anyone that has flown in a situation were you can barely see your wing tip it isn't that easy. To begin with when you are on decent and realize the one and only attitude indicator has failed you could be in any attitude. Trying to figure out if you are right side up could be impossible. I wouldn't be quick to judge the pilots for not recovering.

Saying that i have a hard time believing in today day and age of MELS SMS and everything else anyone would depart in that day.
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Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing

Post by C.W.E. » Wed May 01, 2019 6:07 pm

Amazes how people think this would be such an easy situation that could have been prevented with a turn bank indictor and a altimeter. For anyone that has flown in a situation were you can barely see your wing tip it isn't that easy.
Agreed, you also need an airspeed indicator as well as a T&B and altimeter.
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Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing

Post by godsrcrazy » Wed May 01, 2019 6:33 pm

C.W.E. wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 6:07 pm
Amazes how people think this would be such an easy situation that could have been prevented with a turn bank indictor and a altimeter. For anyone that has flown in a situation were you can barely see your wing tip it isn't that easy.
Agreed, you also need an airspeed indicator as well as a T&B and altimeter.
I agree its mandatory for every aircraft to have these items. Still doesn't help when you chase a failing attitude indictor then try and figure out what attitude the aircraft is at.

The interesting part now will be to see what TC and all the winning companies do. I am thinking nothing. Years ago First air lawn darted a 737 loaded with pax in YZF and wrote it off. They then landed a 737 in YEG between the runway and taxi way lights. The mines did nothing cause they needed the Herc. Buffalo crashed a DC4 with fuel drums in Ulu and they were banned from flying anything for the mines.
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Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing

Post by C.W.E. » Wed May 01, 2019 6:42 pm

I agree its mandatory for every aircraft to have these items. Still doesn't help when you chase a failing attitude indictor then try and figure out what attitude the aircraft is at.
You will have to take into consideration my comments are based on having learned to fly in the mid fifties and recovery from unusual attitudes on limited panel ( Airspeed, Turn and bank indicator and airspeed indicator ) was part of the training for the commercial license. If we could not demonstrate we could recover from unusual attitudes using that method we did not receive a commercial license.

And it was done using two stage amber as the means to block any outside visual clues and the training airplane I learned on was the Cessna 140.

Also when taking the ride for the instrument rating we had to be able to understand morse code.

Were we improperly trained?

Still doesn't help when you chase a failing attitude indictor then try and figure out what attitude the aircraft is at.
Maybe if you are doing that you are missing the full picture???
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Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing

Post by telex » Wed May 01, 2019 7:21 pm

youhavecontrol wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 5:08 pm
"According to Jeremy Warkentin, technical investigator for the TSB, one attitude indicator wasn't functioning when the flight took off, but the crew flew anyway. The second indicator failed 84 seconds before impact."

Oh geez
178 seconds to live. On average. Google it if you need to.
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Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing

Post by YBW-Kid » Wed May 01, 2019 7:37 pm

Does it not make sense to include partial panel in every IFR check ride? To include regular refresher partial panel training. It's something one seldom gets to practice and when you need the skills- you really need the skills.
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