Air Tindi Flight Missing

Topics related to accidents, incidents & over due aircraft should be placed in this forum.

Moderators: Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, ahramin, sky's the limit, sepia

Post Reply
Cliff Jumper
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 168
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2015 8:22 am

Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing

Post by Cliff Jumper »

airway wrote: Thu Apr 30, 2020 8:47 am I'm pretty sure that if a IFR aircraft is equipped with 2 Attitude Indicators with separate power supplies, there is no requirement for a standby AI, T&B indicator, Turn Coordinator, or even a ball.
You're pretty sure?

I'm pretty sure that you're wrong.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Axial Flow
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 504
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 6:00 pm

Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing

Post by Axial Flow »

With a third attitude indicator installed, you may use a slip-skid indicator in lieu of a turn and slip indicator or turn coordinator.


Power-driven Aircraft — IFR

605.18 No person shall conduct a take-off in a power-driven aircraft for the purpose of IFR flight unless it is equipped with

(a) when it is operated by day, the equipment required pursuant to paragraphs 605.16(1)(a) to (h)



605.16 (1) No person shall conduct a take-off in a power-driven aircraft for the purpose of night VFR flight, unless it is equipped with

(a) the equipment referred to in paragraphs 605.14(c) to (n);

(b) a sensitive altimeter adjustable for barometric pressure;

(c) subject to subsection (2), a turn and slip indicator or turn coordinator;

(2) Where the aircraft is equipped with a third attitude indicator that is usable through flight attitudes of 360° of pitch and roll for an aeroplane, or ± 80° of pitch and ± 120° of roll for a helicopter, the aircraft may be equipped with a slip-skid indicator in lieu of a turn and slip indicator or a turn coordinator.

Would nice for CARS to require a third attitude indicator for all Part 7 operations. I have flown 7-8 leg days with Stratus 3 connected to Foreflight and only had to calibrate it on the ground for initial flight, and by end of day it was only a few degrees out for pitch and roll. So systems available like the Lynx or Garmin Connext or Flight Stream coming directly from AC AHRS you would be set.
---------- ADS -----------
 
flyingnorm
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 13
Joined: Sat May 20, 2017 8:37 pm

Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing

Post by flyingnorm »

Since the CP AI failed and was not snagged on the ground it could raise a company culture question. Alternatively, it could raise a question around a specific piece of equipment thats always broke, or is at least experiencing a series of failures in a short time. I had five flight director failures in a short lengths of time in the same aircraft. Got to the point where I limited myself to marginal vfr flights because it was going to tank sometime on the next flight. You get the instrument overhauled, install it and it works, 10 hours later or sometimes sooner its broke again. Certain models of the electomechanical instuments are getting long on the tooth, and overhaul shops don't have access to either the knowledge or components to properly rebuild the instruments. In such cases, its a big step to look at an efis upgrade on an older airplane, and its just the CP side after all. Yes culture, but a culture created by certain specific models of junk equipment rather than some other unhealthy company cultures created by other circumstances or individuals. The failure rate of the model of AI in the accident report is quite telling.
---------- ADS -----------
 
goingnowherefast
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1869
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:24 am

Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing

Post by goingnowherefast »

If maintenance gives me a signout of "ground test serviceable" or "no faults found", I'm pretty quick to write a more detailed snag the next time it fails. Might take some pictures with my phone. This little back and forth can only go on for so long before it's a reoccuring defect, and requires more attention. SMS reports have a fantastic way of causing reoccurring and frustrating problems to get fixed.
Pilots can have an influence on company culture as well, just make sure you're a positive influence on company culture.
---------- ADS -----------
 
2R
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4196
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 2:25 pm
Location: left coast

Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing

Post by 2R »

Sadly, lots to learn in the reading of safety reports .
What did you learn from reading this particular report ?
---------- ADS -----------
 
Capt. Underpants
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 292
Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2010 5:04 am

Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing

Post by Capt. Underpants »

A pilot who decides its okay to depart with an attitude indicator that will fix itself during the flight is indicative of someone who's worked in a negative safety culture. To be fair, he could have learned such behaviour anywhere (it doesn't have to be Tindi), but he definitely learned it somewhere.
---------- ADS -----------
 
pelmet
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5126
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 2:48 pm

Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing

Post by pelmet »

Meatservo wrote: Thu May 02, 2019 9:26 am It's all very well to boast of your prowess at recognizing and correcting unusual attitudes with your turn&bank indicator, but the distracting presence of a dead horizon rolling around like Sammy Davis jr's left eye, maybe an unusual attitude to start things off, I don't know, sounds shitty. I was stuck in thick forest-fire smoke in a beaver many years ago, and the D.G. stopped working. The horizon, turn and bank, everything else worked fine, but that damn D.G. slowly turning this way and that, and not turning when I was trying to turn, contributed to a powerful vertigo that I had trouble with. I had nothing to cover it with. Nowhere near as debilitating as a horizon going tits-up, which has also happened to me and is really no fun.
Of course, best to follow the regs and not depart but a situation could arise anyways with a dual failure after takeoff.

You have brought up what is one of the most critical items in a situation like this. While I have never had an artificial horizon failure when actual instrument flying was required, one need only be hand flying an aircraft(like we used to do all the time up north when no autopilot was provided) when the northern lights are out at a funny angle to the horizon on a dark night. It has a very powerful effect and the best solution was to turn the interior lights on bright so the lights in the sky could no longer be seen. A faulty artificial horizon no doubt has a much more powerful effect. That is why they need to be immediately covered over.

In the case of the accident flight, it was already known that the right side artificial horizon was no good. Of course, we don't know exact details of what the pilots did, but the right side horizon should have been covered up, such as by a piece of paper placed over it. Perhaps the design of the panel will allow the piece of paper to stay in place or it can be held in place by tape or even a piece of gum(sounds odd but it will work). Now the faulty horizon is out of view.

Then, just like when flying a general aviation airplane on instruments with only one artificial horizon, one can be ready if there is a failure of your one usable artificial horizon. As soon as a flag appears, I would suggest to cover it right away, as fast as possible. And yes, you do have something to immediately use to cover it up.....your hand. Use your hand initially to block its view and then get something else to cover it(and don't peek at it). Then just concentrate 100% on the remaining instruments for a few minutes to ensure that the aircraft is stable and that you have gotten a bit used to the partial panel stuff after all these years, then start considering what to do next. Maybe later on, once used to straight and level flight, a peek can be made to see if the flag is still there or maybe not.

You can see how quickly these guys lost control....80 seconds to crash from 12000 feet. Cover the faulty horizon immediately.

Going from memory, it seems to me that some of these artificial horizons freeze in their last position when power is lost while others go to an unusual attitude. Either case is bad and either distracting or misleading. I suspect that if the horizon had been covered right away, they would have been able to maintain straight and level for a while and figure things out.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
'97 Tercel
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 628
Joined: Fri Jul 19, 2013 5:19 pm

Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing

Post by '97 Tercel »

It's all very well to boast of your prowess at recognizing and correcting unusual attitudes with your turn&bank indicator, but the distracting presence of a dead horizon rolling around like Sammy Davis jr's left eye, maybe an unusual attitude to start things off, I don't know, sounds shitty. I was stuck in thick forest-fire smoke in a beaver many years ago, and the D.G. stopped working. The horizon, turn and bank, everything else worked fine, but that damn D.G. slowly turning this way and that, and not turning when I was trying to turn, contributed to a powerful vertigo that I had trouble with. I had nothing to cover it with.
I think thats spot on
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
daedalusx
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 375
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 7:51 am

Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing

Post by daedalusx »

flyingnorm wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:52 pm This accident sequence has me asking some questions.

1. What are real world failure rates for G1000 or similar flight decks? Not talking about a bug or incorrect setting but rather loss of adhrs.

2. Do you find the company culture shifting when a certain piece of equipment is so unreliable that its always broke?
1) I had an AHRS topple on me twice in about 2000 flight hours in a G1000 Kingair. So it does happen. And that one happened a couple of time on that specific tail with other coworkers, so much that Garmin had to get their engineers to find what was causing the issue - which I believe could have been due to the blower system causing some kind of magnetic interference - once it got fixed I believed it was reliable.
Also had a AHRS topple on me on the DH8 300 coming in YYC on the STAR - as well as a few times on the ground.

2) Worked at Tindi. Safety culture was pretty good for a northern operator, training was good too. But a lot of guys can put pressure on themselves to get the job done and of course management sure would rather have a driver who ‘get er done’ than the one who tries everything to not go - no one wants to be the guy that leaves 50 lbs of payload behind because he couldn’t find a way to make the number works on the OFP. The problem when you start making your own rules is you don’t know what you don’t know - especially if you’re a green new capt. Some guys don’t want to rock the boat.
That being said, when I was there, I’ve never been pressured to go, by anyone there. Also the Kingair AMEs were solid guys.
At the end of the day, there is indirect pressure to go when you work up north - not sure if it’ll ever change. Especially now in this current economic climate but ultimately, it’s your duty as a Capt to use your judgment and have the courage to stand behind your call to snag an item, book off if you’re sick, refuse to push the WX, take a spray if you need to, etc etc. And as a first officer, it’s your job to speak up.
---------- ADS -----------
 
In twenty years time when your kids ask how you got into flying you want to be able to say "work and determination" not "I just kept taking money from your grandparents for type ratings until someone was stupid enough to give me a job"
Bushman1515
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 12
Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:28 pm

Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing

Post by Bushman1515 »

daedalusx wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 11:27 pm
flyingnorm wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:52 pm This accident sequence has me asking some questions.

1. What are real world failure rates for G1000 or similar flight decks? Not talking about a bug or incorrect setting but rather loss of adhrs.

2. Do you find the company culture shifting when a certain piece of equipment is so unreliable that its always broke?
1) I had an AHRS topple on me twice in about 2000 flight hours in a G1000 Kingair. So it does happen. And that one happened a couple of time on that specific tail with other coworkers, so much that Garmin had to get their engineers to find what was causing the issue - which I believe could have been due to the blower system causing some kind of magnetic interference - once it got fixed I believed it was reliable.
Also had a AHRS topple on me on the DH8 300 coming in YYC on the STAR - as well as a few times on the ground.

2) Worked at Tindi. Safety culture was pretty good for a northern operator, training was good too. But a lot of guys can put pressure on themselves to get the job done and of course management sure would rather have a driver who ‘get er done’ than the one who tries everything to not go - no one wants to be the guy that leaves 50 lbs of payload behind because he couldn’t find a way to make the number works on the OFP. The problem when you start making your own rules is you don’t know what you don’t know - especially if you’re a green new capt. Some guys don’t want to rock the boat.
That being said, when I was there, I’ve never been pressured to go, by anyone there. Also the Kingair AMEs were solid guys.
At the end of the day, there is indirect pressure to go when you work up north - not sure if it’ll ever change. Especially now in this current economic climate but ultimately, it’s your duty as a Capt to use your judgment and have the courage to stand behind your call to snag an item, book off if you’re sick, refuse to push the WX, take a spray if you need to, etc etc. And as a first officer, it’s your job to speak up.



I totally agree with you here, a lot of the pressure out there is internal and it rests in the hands of the Captain to make that call. Many of these guys flying kingairs now are pretty low time captains in retrospect and they figure being a captain just means better pay and flying from the left seat! Guess what boys that’s about 30% of it especially when your operating up north. This accident was especially sad to see because most of us captains operating in the north have made a call to fly when we probably shouldn’t have, and things could have turned out very different. It don’t matter what the company culture was because at the end of the day Captain going to take the fall for it. So fly smart, cover your ass and you should be fine. -God bless
---------- ADS -----------
 
airway
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 218
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 10:17 am

Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing

Post by airway »

This accident is similar to the one I think was in South America years ago. Turboprop, regional airline. Pilots overstayed their coffee break, rushed the start up and taxi, took off intentionally before the Attitude Indicators spooled up (they assumed they would spool up shortly after take off), disoriented in cloud, crashed into a mountain.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Post Reply

Return to “Accidents, Incidents & Overdue Aircraft”