Air Tindi Flight Missing

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Illya Kuryakin
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Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing

Post by Illya Kuryakin »

All this talk of lack of training, how the crew should have made it ......well, before we get carried away, there was an instance a few years back where a real live AIRLINE CREW, stalled a modern wide bodied jetliner through thirty thousand feet into the south Atlantic Ocean...because their pitot tubes froze. Yup. Pitot tubes. Loss of airspeed. That was IT. Instead of selecting cruise thrust, and more or less, a cruise deck angle......these rocket scientists became, what I like to call, The Air France Swim Team.

How do you defend yourselves against an Air Tindi occurance? MEL. Read it. If you need TWO, fix it. If one restricts you to VMC, stay visual.
In all cases, even if it's not in an MEL, or if it is, try to imagine having the second one pack it in. If you're not comfortable with loosing both, park it.
Fly safe.
Illya
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Daniel Cooper
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Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing

Post by Daniel Cooper »

From what I see on a googled King Air 200 MEL you don't need 2 working attitude indicators unless a second in command is required. No offense to King Air first officers but I don't they are required. Correct me if I'm wrong.
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cncpc
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Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing

Post by cncpc »

Daniel Cooper wrote: Thu May 02, 2019 7:13 am From what I see on a googled King Air 200 MEL you don't need 2 working attitude indicators unless a second in command is required. No offense to King Air first officers but I don't they are required. Correct me if I'm wrong.
I'm fairly sure that you need to have a fully functioning autopilot for single pilot IFR. If you don't, then a FO is required by Transport Canada.

The company may specify two crew in its ops manual, regardless of whether it is a single pilot certified aircraft. So, I'd say that is also case where two crew are "required" and hence the need for a second AI.
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cncpc
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Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing

Post by cncpc »

Roadrunnersmother wrote: Tue Apr 30, 2019 5:33 pm Did these guys have instrument ratings?
In the ground 84 seconds after no attitude indicators. Mind blowing they couldn't keep in air with rest of instrumentation.
Must be more to it than this. Basic altimeter and DG for straight and level in IMC will keep you alive.
Quite the training program this air tindi has.
I suspect the loss of AI would have affected the autopilot unless they were hand flying. That then would add recognition time to the mix and eaten into the 84 seconds they had.

I agree, must be more to it than this.
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Meatservo
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Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing

Post by Meatservo »

Well, we don't know if this particular aircraft was equipped with turn&bank indicators, a battery-driven standby horizon, or what. Did the autopilot cause an unusual attitude as the horizon failed, before disengaging, or were the pilots hand-flying, did the instrument fail suddenly or slowly, we don't know any of this.

It's all very well to boast of your prowess at recognizing and correcting unusual attitudes with your turn&bank indicator, but the distracting presence of a dead horizon rolling around like Sammy Davis jr's left eye, maybe an unusual attitude to start things off, I don't know, sounds shitty. I was stuck in thick forest-fire smoke in a beaver many years ago, and the D.G. stopped working. The horizon, turn and bank, everything else worked fine, but that damn D.G. slowly turning this way and that, and not turning when I was trying to turn, contributed to a powerful vertigo that I had trouble with. I had nothing to cover it with. Nowhere near as debilitating as a horizon going tits-up, which has also happened to me and is really no fun.

Lots of planes these days don't even have a turn&bank indicator. If you lost both horizons in one of those, you'd have nothing left.
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youhavecontrol
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Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing

Post by youhavecontrol »

telex wrote: Wed May 01, 2019 7:21 pm
youhavecontrol wrote: Tue Apr 30, 2019 5:08 pm "According to Jeremy Warkentin, technical investigator for the TSB, one attitude indicator wasn't functioning when the flight took off, but the crew flew anyway. The second indicator failed 84 seconds before impact."

Oh geez
178 seconds to live. On average. Google it if you need to.
"You can hear the wind tearing your aircraft... you see the ground... you open your mouth to scream, but you've run out of seconds"
Pretty sure I know most of that script by memory now.
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Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing

Post by bobcaygeon »

Daniel Cooper wrote: Thu May 02, 2019 7:13 am From what I see on a googled King Air 200 MEL you don't need 2 working attitude indicators unless a second in command is required. No offense to King Air first officers but I don't they are required. Correct me if I'm wrong.
You can MEL the Copilot's AI if you have a functioning autopilot because the CARs don't require an FO if you have an autopilot in a 703 a B200.
B200 MMEL.JPG
B200 MMEL.JPG (29.7 KiB) Viewed 4173 times
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Daniel Cooper
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Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing

Post by Daniel Cooper »

So if the above poster that stated the Captain's side was EFIS does that mean the aircraft was not airworthy?
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daedalusx
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Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing

Post by daedalusx »

Doesn’t matter. Air Tindi does not operate their 200s single pilot. The capts don’t do single pilot PPCs. If it left the ground with the right side ADI u/s then it wasn’t airworthy.
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Daniel Cooper
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Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing

Post by Daniel Cooper »

daedalusx wrote: Thu May 02, 2019 2:19 pm Doesn’t matter. Air Tindi does not operate their 200s single pilot. The capts don’t do single pilot PPCs. If it left the ground with the right side ADI u/s then it wasn’t airworthy.
Air Tindi's president seems to agree with you.
https://nnsl.com/yellowknifer/key-fligh ... ndi-crash/
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Illya Kuryakin
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Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing

Post by Illya Kuryakin »

daedalusx wrote: Thu May 02, 2019 2:19 pm Doesn’t matter. Air Tindi does not operate their 200s single pilot. The capts don’t do single pilot PPCs. If it left the ground with the right side ADI u/s then it wasn’t airworthy.
And there you have it.
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Donald
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Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing

Post by Donald »

Daniel Cooper wrote: Thu May 02, 2019 5:20 pm Air Tindi's president seems to agree with you.
https://nnsl.com/yellowknifer/key-fligh ... ndi-crash/
Do you have the whole article?
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lownslow
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Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing

Post by lownslow »

cncpc wrote: Thu May 02, 2019 8:59 am That then would add recognition time to the mix and eaten into the 84 seconds they had.
Has the TSB said where they got the 84 seconds figure from? If it was internally recorded by the instrument then you can consider however long it took to notice but if it came from the CVR then that would be the actual time of recognition.
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Donald
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Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing

Post by Donald »

So were the pilots "give'ers" for flying a broken plane, or was the company "pushers" for not fixing known defects and asking crews to go?

In a perfect world, we know the correct answer (hardest thing about flying...).

But this is 703 northern flying with low-timers, and instances where companies take advantage.
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seven-oh-nooo
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Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing

Post by seven-oh-nooo »

Donald wrote: Thu May 02, 2019 9:40 pm So were the pilots "give'ers" for flying a broken plane,
I can't be everywhere at once. The thought of this keeps me up at night.
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Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing

Post by leftoftrack »

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Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing

Post by JL »

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porcsord
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Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing

Post by porcsord »

Condolences to all those affected.

This is one of the more harrowing reports I've read recently. It seems they broke out at about 2000agl and attempted a recovery, but with a descent rate of 34,000'/min were unable to recover at that point (about 4 seconds to act).

Reading this has got me thinking about the last time I genuinely flew partial panel. It's been longer than I care to admit, and will be going into the sim this week to get some practice.

PS
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flyingnorm
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Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing

Post by flyingnorm »

This accident sequence has me asking some questions.

1. What are real world failure rates for G1000 or similar flight decks? Not talking about a bug or incorrect setting but rather loss of adhrs.

2. Do you find the company culture shifting when a certain piece of equipment is so unreliable that its always broke?
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airway
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Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing

Post by airway »

I just skimmed the accident report, and did not see anything about what attitude instruments were installed in that aircraft that were available for use when both of their primary Attitude Indicators failed.

Did they have any of these?

Standby Attitude Indicator
Turn and Bank Indicator
Turn Coordinator
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