Air Tindi Flight Missing
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Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing
If the plane was found at the Northwest end of Marian Lake, as reported on CBC, there is a ridge there, with the highest point on the VNC shown as 971', which is about 400 feet higher than the water. You can't tell by looking at the map but it looks like an escarpment, which one would cross close to a right angle on the way to Wha'ti.
I'm not going to speculate about what they were doing down there, but I have flown that route in MVFR conditions on floats, and the ridge is something to look out for.
I'm not going to speculate about what they were doing down there, but I have flown that route in MVFR conditions on floats, and the ridge is something to look out for.
Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing
Unfortunately those folks can often be biased.Axial Flow wrote: ↑Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:04 pm That's why I will wait for the trained people with the actual information to give me the cause.
Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing
Yes and the reports can be vague enough to make it difficult to really understand why these accidents happen, they hope enough pilots are ignorant of the subject for their report to look legitimate.Unfortunately those folks can often be biased.
Does anyone here know if that flight filed an IFR flight plan?
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Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing
I had the pleasure of knowing both of the pilots. Both extrodinary men, amazing and SAFE pilots. I know Will would have never descended below a minimum altitude unless he was in VMC so I’m confident that it would not have been CFIT. Neither of the guys were cowboys. Its tough right now not knowing what exactly happened to the plane and a lot of people are scratching their heads as to how this happened but for now all we can do is wait for the TSB to do their thing. In the mean time if you guys feel like helping swing by gofundme and help support their families.
https://www.gofundme.com/memorial-for-zach-mckillop
https://ca.gofundme.com/in-memory-of-will-hayworth
https://www.gofundme.com/memorial-for-zach-mckillop
https://ca.gofundme.com/in-memory-of-will-hayworth
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Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing
Something like this can be easily caused by an erroneous altimeter setting. A 310 hit the ground near Cat Lake several years ago for just this reason. Every morning after I spark up the beast, I set set field elevation before I even "check in" for the numbers with FSS. Sounds pretty basic, but pilots have been known to miss an even 1000 foot error. Not saying this happened......probably didn't.....but it would certainly do it.
Take it for what it's worth, but I always do this, and there's a big probability I've been doing this longer than you.
Illya
Take it for what it's worth, but I always do this, and there's a big probability I've been doing this longer than you.
Illya
Wish I didn't know now, what I didn't know then.
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Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing
They may have been VFR when they descended but anyone that's been over a frozen lake in the winter while it's snowing knows it can be VFR and suddenly you don't even know which way is up. Hitting a 400 foot ridge on the other side of a lake during potential whiteout conditions definitely suggests CFIT as the cause.
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Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing
I always set field elevation as well.
The problem is, it isn’t really on profile with a normal decent, they crashed outside of the 25 mile safe, and visibility was a mile and ceiling was 1600 feet. They were right on approach ban—not exactly the conditions any informed crew goes looking to find an early sucker hole and dive and drive.
The problem is, it isn’t really on profile with a normal decent, they crashed outside of the 25 mile safe, and visibility was a mile and ceiling was 1600 feet. They were right on approach ban—not exactly the conditions any informed crew goes looking to find an early sucker hole and dive and drive.
Geez did I say that....? Or just think it....?
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Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing
I always look at these things and try to figure out some causes. As in, let's come up with ideas so the next guy won't do it. As in, why were they low enough to hit something over 25 miles out? Not a great idea to be anywhere near that low, that far back on a VMC day. The guys knew the neighbourhood. That's why I'm thinking altimeter setting. Was there a big pressure change since the last time the plane flew?iflyforpie wrote: ↑Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:32 pm I always set field elevation as well.
The problem is, it isn’t really on profile with a normal decent, they crashed outside of the 25 mile safe, and visibility was a mile and ceiling was 1600 feet. They were right on approach ban—not exactly the conditions any informed crew goes looking to find an early sucker hole and dive and drive.
Illya
Wish I didn't know now, what I didn't know then.
Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing
They may have had an IFR clearance out of YZF controlled airspace. However where they were found and the Whati (lac La Martre) is uncontrolled airspace below 18000 ft.
Does anyone here know if that flight filed an IFR flight plan?
I do not know present practice but in the past one would likely operate on a flight note and get a IFR clearance out of YZF. Once clear of controlled airspace ATC would terminate the IFR and you would continue on the note.
As the approach to Whati is wholly in uncontrolled airspace no clearance is required.
Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing
Yes it has been like that for decades and it leaves how you do it to the pilots based on what they find en- route.They may have had an IFR clearance out of YZF controlled airspace. However where they were found and the Wha Ti (lac La Martre) is uncontrolled airspace below 18000 ft.
I do not know present practice but in the past one would likely operate on a flight note and get a IFR clearance out of YZF. Once clear of controlled airspace ATC would terminate the IFR and you would continue on the note.
As the approach to Wha Ti is wholly in uncontrolled airspace no clearance is required.
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Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing
No approach ban at Whati. No weather obs either.iflyforpie wrote: ↑Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:32 pm I always set field elevation as well.
The problem is, it isn’t really on profile with a normal decent, they crashed outside of the 25 mile safe, and visibility was a mile and ceiling was 1600 feet. They were right on approach ban—not exactly the conditions any informed crew goes looking to find an early sucker hole and dive and drive.
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Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing
Well we have had some significant dry arctic highs over most of the country which has made altimeter settings approach 31.00” and stacks of isobars over the GFA. It’s quite possible that 30.76” was set read back “76 set and cross checked” on two or three altimeters only looking at the 100s hand or last digits.Illya Kuryakin wrote: ↑Sat Feb 09, 2019 1:13 pmI always look at these things and try to figure out some causes. As in, let's come up with ideas so the next guy won't do it. As in, why were they low enough to hit something over 25 miles out? Not a great idea to be anywhere near that low, that far back on a VMC day. The guys knew the neighbourhood. That's why I'm thinking altimeter setting. Was there a big pressure change since the last time the plane flew?iflyforpie wrote: ↑Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:32 pm I always set field elevation as well.
The problem is, it isn’t really on profile with a normal decent, they crashed outside of the 25 mile safe, and visibility was a mile and ceiling was 1600 feet. They were right on approach ban—not exactly the conditions any informed crew goes looking to find an early sucker hole and dive and drive.
Illya
Geez did I say that....? Or just think it....?
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Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing
Sorry.. I misread the YZF METAR thinking it was Whati.Roadrunnersmother wrote: ↑Sat Feb 09, 2019 2:52 pmNo approach ban at Whati. No weather obs either.iflyforpie wrote: ↑Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:32 pm I always set field elevation as well.
The problem is, it isn’t really on profile with a normal decent, they crashed outside of the 25 mile safe, and visibility was a mile and ceiling was 1600 feet. They were right on approach ban—not exactly the conditions any informed crew goes looking to find an early sucker hole and dive and drive.
Geez did I say that....? Or just think it....?
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Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing
You do see that I made a mistake in typing and went back and changed it, but hey good for you for taking a quote of a quote of a quote, instead of quoting the original post that I changed and using it against me. What I meant was that the 100 nm safe is high due to terrain quite a ways to the west, not along their route.Axial Flow wrote: ↑Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:04 pmThat's why I will wait for the trained people with the actual information to give me the cause...maybe a review of a CAP GEN is in order.Co-Joe: but realistically the 100 nm safe is higher because of the 11 800 AMA for rocks 180 nm west of there,
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Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing
I don't think you know these guys as well as you think.joshiscool26 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 09, 2019 10:06 am I had the pleasure of knowing both of the pilots. Both extrodinary men, amazing and SAFE pilots. I know Will would have never descended below a minimum altitude unless he was in VMC so I’m confident that it would not have been CFIT. Neither of the guys were cowboys. Its tough right now not knowing what exactly happened to the plane and a lot of people are scratching their heads as to how this happened but for now all we can do is wait for the TSB to do their thing. In the mean time if you guys feel like helping swing by gofundme and help support their families.
https://www.gofundme.com/memorial-for-zach-mckillop
https://ca.gofundme.com/in-memory-of-will-hayworth
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Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing
Are you willing to stake your "reputation" on that.Illya Kuryakin wrote: ↑Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:30 pm The “cause” is simple. Descended below a published altitude IMC.
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Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing
Well Shimmy, if they hadn't descended below a published altitude, they wouldn't have hit the ground. What is your point?shimmydampner wrote: ↑Sat Feb 09, 2019 4:47 pmAre you willing to stake your "reputation" on that.Illya Kuryakin wrote: ↑Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:30 pm The “cause” is simple. Descended below a published altitude IMC.
Wish I didn't know now, what I didn't know then.
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Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing
I am trying to come up with an explanation that would cause someone to hit the ground if you did not descend below a published altitude.....Well Shimmy, if they hadn't descended below a published altitude, they wouldn't have hit the ground. What is your point?
...as soon as I find one I will get right back here and share it with you all. ...
But then you and I don't really know jack shit about flying do we Illya?
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Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing
Well, as both you and Ilya know, being the experienced and extremely knowledgeable aviators that you are, the cause of any accident isn't WHAT happened, but WHY it happened.