Atlas Air 767

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Eric Janson
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Re: Atlas Air 767

Post by Eric Janson »

C-GGGQ wrote: Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:00 am Fair enough, just wondering how easy they are to accidentally bump vs a button on the side like you see in many.
I don't recall ever doing it.

Nothing will happen unless you are in a condition where TOGA mode has armed.

Starting to look like inadvertent TOGA mode selection and a reaction to Somatogravic Illusion.
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CAL
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Re: Atlas Air 767

Post by CAL »

anymore theories on this?
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jpilot77
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Re: Atlas Air 767

Post by jpilot77 »

Looks like inadvertent TOGA activation and the FO thinking they were about to stall. He then pushed to a 40 degree nose down attitude. The captain yanked so hard back on his control column that it disconnected from the elevators. Once they were below the cloud deck the FO tried to recover but it was too late. Also nobody had retarded the thrust levers either so with the nose down attitude the speed was enormous. There’s a lot of breakdown of said event over at Pprune.
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CAL
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Re: Atlas Air 767

Post by CAL »

my god how does that happen.....
how does it disconnect from the elevator does each side disconnect independently for a jammed stab event?
cheers for the info how completely random poor guys
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tsgas
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Re: Atlas Air 767

Post by tsgas »

CAL wrote: Fri May 10, 2019 11:16 am my god how does that happen.....
how does it disconnect from the elevator does each side disconnect independently for a jammed stab event?
cheers for the info how completely random poor guys
There is a limit in any given aircraft, to the amount of abuse that it will tolerate , before it exacts it's revenge.

Treat all aircraft, as if , your life depends on it, because it does.
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Re: Atlas Air 767

Post by pelmet »

jpilot77 wrote: Thu May 09, 2019 11:41 am Looks like inadvertent TOGA activation and the FO thinking they were about to stall. He then pushed to a 40 degree nose down attitude. The captain yanked so hard back on his control column that it disconnected from the elevators. Once they were below the cloud deck the FO tried to recover but it was too late. Also nobody had retarded the thrust levers either so with the nose down attitude the speed was enormous. There’s a lot of breakdown of said event over at Pprune.
According to my inside sources, this is pretty much correct. They had speedbrakes out for descent and the 767 has a known burble caused by this that was misinterpreted as a stall. Toga pushed while captain not looking which initiated a climb and lots of thrust. The FO started pushing nose down too much which was opposed by the captain.

Or something like that.
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Re: Atlas Air 767

Post by W5 »

Pilot Of Doomed Amazon Air Flight Had Poor Training Record, Seemed Confused Before Crash, NTSB Probe Suggests

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeremyboga ... 4348ce79cc
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ReserveTank
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Re: Atlas Air 767

Post by ReserveTank »

Referring to the FO of the accident flight...
The industry in the US is booming and is desperate for pilots. Unfortunately, this means that there's a lot of bottom-of-the-barrel talent being pushed through training programs everywhere. I've trained with guys like this all through my career. They exhibit a common trait--a complete lack of situational awareness. Guys like this will keep shopping for an airline that will submit to the sunk cost fallacy, finally forcing the examiners to pass them. PRIA doesn't catch everything, as this story shows. I've worked with guys that were employed for several months before being fired due to failure to disclose multiple unsat checking events. They usually only get caught when going to upgrade. It's a crock if his family really goes after Atlas about working conditions. This FO had no business at work to begin with.
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daedalusx
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Re: Atlas Air 767

Post by daedalusx »

Copypasta from PPRUNE

Training Incompetency and Failures
6/27/11 - Resigned from CommutAir for failing DHC-8 initial
8/13/12 - Resigned from Air Wisconsin for failing CRJ initial
4/22/14 - Failed EMB-145 Oral at Trans State Airlines
5/11/14 - Failed EMB-145 Type Rating at Trans States Airlines
5/17 - Failed EMB-175 Upgrade Attempt at Mesa Airlines
5/17 - Nearly failed FO Requal after failing upgrade attempt at Mesa Airlines
7/27/17 - Failed B-767 Oral at Atlas Air
8/1/17 - Unsat Judgement/Situational Awareness during FBS-1 at Atlas Air
8/5/17 - Failed DBS-5 at Atlas Air
8/11/17 - Almost Failed FFSI-1 at Atlas Air
8/31/17 - "Regression of Situational Awareness" during FFSI-3 at Atlas Air
9/22/17 - Failed B-767 Type Rating for "Very Low Situational Awareness", incomplete procedures, and exceeding limitations at Atlas Air

Past Training Notes (directly quoted from the NTSB Docket)
Air Wisconsin CRJ Initial Failure - "They were conducting the emergency procedure cabin altitude ... where they are at FL350 or so, and he gives the students a cabin altitude message requiring an emergency descent to 10,000 feet" ... "Conrad then goes to descend the simulator. He was not sure of Conrad's background, but instead of descending on the autopilot, Conrad disengaged the autopilot and abruptly pitched down well below horizon. They got stick shaker and overspeed alert together. He was not sure if it was an extreme nose down, but remembered that it was abrupt input on the controls"
Mesa Airlines ERJ-175 Upgrade Failure (Instructor 1) - "He had previously failed simulator lesson 2 with different instructor, and he had requested a different instructor. She was conducting his retraining for lesson 2. She said his performance was a "train wreck" and he performed very poorly in this lesson. In the briefing room he did well, and explained things well. However, in the simulator and something he wasn't expecting happened he got extremely flustered and could not respond appropriately to the situation." ... "When asked about her comment in her notes about Conrad's "lack of understanding of how unsafe he was," she said he was making very frantic mistakes, lots and lots of mistakes, and did a lot of things wrong but did not recognize this was a problem. He thought he was a good pilot never had any problems and thought he should be a captain. he could not evaluate himself and see that he did not have the right stuff."
Mesa Airlines ERJ-175 Upgrade Failure (Instructor 2) - "He first met Conrad Aska during a recurrent checking event in March 2016. That session went ok and nothing stood out. He did have some trouble with the stall series. The problems were with his attitude control, and he had a hard time getting the airplane back to level flight" ... "He said when Conrad would make a mistake in training he had an excuse for everything"

The quote that stands out the most to me in this second Mesa instructor interview is, "When asked if Conrad would get startled in the simulator, he said that during one stall recovery, Conrad pitched down about 40 degrees for recovery, then a pitch up about 20 degrees. His flight path was all over the place."
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AirportCoffee
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Re: Atlas Air 767

Post by AirportCoffee »

Yikes. You would think the system would catch up to him sooner or later with all of those failures :rolleyes:
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Re: Atlas Air 767

Post by PostmasterGeneral »

AirportCoffee wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2019 7:39 am Yikes. You would think the system would catch up to him sooner or later with all of those failures :rolleyes:
Not when the system is flawed and people these days are hired in order to meet some sort of “diversity” quota instead of being hired based on their credentials and ability.
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daedalusx
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Re: Atlas Air 767

Post by daedalusx »

PostmasterGeneral wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2019 7:58 am
AirportCoffee wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2019 7:39 am Yikes. You would think the system would catch up to him sooner or later with all of those failures :rolleyes:
Not when the system is flawed and people these days are hired in order to meet some sort of “diversity” quota instead of being hired based on their credentials and ability.
Ding ding ding ! That’s it right there. The elephant in the room.
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In twenty years time when your kids ask how you got into flying you want to be able to say "work and determination" not "I just kept taking money from your grandparents for type ratings until someone was stupid enough to give me a job"
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Re: Atlas Air 767

Post by ReserveTank »

daedalusx wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2019 9:52 am
PostmasterGeneral wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2019 7:58 am
AirportCoffee wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2019 7:39 am Yikes. You would think the system would catch up to him sooner or later with all of those failures :rolleyes:
Not when the system is flawed and people these days are hired in order to meet some sort of “diversity” quota instead of being hired based on their credentials and ability.
Ding ding ding ! That’s it right there. The elephant in the room.
Not to hijack, but it's related--The MAX (and Airbus to an extent) software was written exactly for this purpose. Vibrant and diverse people who can neither fly attitude nor figure out which mode the aircraft is in. That's the future of aviation, unfortunately.
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Re: Atlas Air 767

Post by TG »

AirportCoffee wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2019 7:39 am Yikes. You would think the system would catch up to him sooner or later with all of those failures :rolleyes:
Which remind me about this thread running on Av Canada a few months ago, about what to do when you get to fly with somebody that incompetent.
-Report it?
-Give more training?
-Fire the person from the company?
-All this combined?
-etc...


Where do you draw the line?
I think being in two crew environment that quick in his carrer (it seems) Is probably what kept him alive that long.
Single pilot's IFR World would have weeded him out the hard Darwin way earlier.



Amazing how he managed to thread his way that long though.
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Re: Atlas Air 767

Post by TG »

AirportCoffee wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2019 7:39 am Yikes. You would think the system would catch up to him sooner or later with all of those failures :rolleyes:
Which remind me about this thread running on Av Canada a few months ago, about what to do when you get to fly with somebody that incompetent.
-Report it?
-Give more training?
-Fire the person from the company?
-All this combined?
-etc...


Where do you draw the line?
I think being in two crew environment quick in his carrer (it seems) Is probably what kept him alive that long.
Single pilot's IFR World would have weeded him out the hard Darwin way earlier.



Amazing how he managed to thread his way that long though.
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Re: Atlas Air 767

Post by Heliian »

PostmasterGeneral wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2019 7:58 am
AirportCoffee wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2019 7:39 am Yikes. You would think the system would catch up to him sooner or later with all of those failures :rolleyes:
Not when the system is flawed and people these days are hired in order to meet some sort of “diversity” quota instead of being hired based on their credentials and ability.
Probably only because Atlas didn't want to pay for better talent. I don't see how your "diversity" agenda plays in this but you come off sounding like a racist bigot.
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Re: Atlas Air 767

Post by Old fella »

AirportCoffee wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2019 7:39 am Yikes. You would think the system would catch up to him sooner or later with all of those failures :rolleyes:
Indeed. With this individual’s checkered past and a demonstrated ability not to meet training standards with past employers, that would certainly follow him as he moved around. Not that I know much on large aircraft operations be they airlines or cargo haulers but was flabbergasted such a person was able to slip through the training cracks undetected until sadly......
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Re: Atlas Air 767

Post by ReserveTank »

Old fella wrote: Mon Dec 23, 2019 6:52 am
AirportCoffee wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2019 7:39 am Yikes. You would think the system would catch up to him sooner or later with all of those failures :rolleyes:
Indeed. With this individual’s checkered past and a demonstrated ability not to meet training standards with past employers, that would certainly follow him as he moved around. Not that I know much on large aircraft operations be they airlines or cargo haulers but was flabbergasted such a person was able to slip through the training cracks undetected until sadly......
Heliian wrote: Mon Dec 23, 2019 5:00 am Probably only because Atlas didn't want to pay for better talent. I don't see how your "diversity" agenda plays in this...
The reason he got through is answered in your own questions. If you know anything about any industry down south, aviation included, you'll understand that diversity drives the wages which drives the training programs. Airlines like Atlas force these guys through because they know he won't bother them about contract obligations, bonuses, pensions, etc. Cheaper to run him through the sim 6 more times and give him copious amounts of OE than to make contracts with competent people. If anyone has the diversity agenda, it's the industry.
At another ACMI, I watched them force guys through with 100 hours of OE, and they still had marginal performance on the aircraft. The check airmen were frustrated because they received edicts to "just get the check done." It's always the same type of guys. That's how it really is...no one is being bigoted. You just haven't seen it for yourself.
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goingnowherefast
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Re: Atlas Air 767

Post by goingnowherefast »

I've seen white guys shoved through line checks too. Race doesn't seem to have anything to do with it. The company needs more pilots, they've already invested $X training dollars on extra sim sessions and extended line indoc, so just get it over with and get them flying the line.
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Re: Atlas Air 767

Post by pelmet »

goingnowherefast wrote: Mon Dec 23, 2019 10:24 am I've seen white guys shoved through line checks too. Race doesn't seem to have anything to do with it.
What about the hiring process?
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