Air Canada YHZ

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av8ts
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Air Canada YHZ

Post by av8ts » Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:12 am

Any new information on this. Was it actually the runway or a taxiway as some people tweeted

https://www.thechronicleherald.ca/news/ ... ld-289455/
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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: Air Canada YHZ

Post by Gilles Hudicourt » Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:29 am

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-sco ... -1.5042893

https://atlantic.ctvnews.ca/passengers- ... -1.4322480
The airline says the plane was unable to taxi passengers to the gate because of poor weather conditions at the airport.
When the TSB gets involved, its not just a case of getting stuck in the snow......
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NotDirty!
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Re: Air Canada YHZ

Post by NotDirty! » Tue Mar 05, 2019 9:18 am

Gilles Hudicourt wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:29 am
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-sco ... -1.5042893

https://atlantic.ctvnews.ca/passengers- ... -1.4322480
The airline says the plane was unable to taxi passengers to the gate because of poor weather conditions at the airport.
When the TSB gets involved, its not just a case of getting stuck in the snow......
TSB got involved when it was reported that they hit a snow bank. “Snowbank” was actually a windrow, from what I hear. End of the runway was sheer ice, slid sideways as they weathercocked trying to turn off the runway. No control, but never left the pavement. No damage, fortunately.
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altiplano
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Re: Air Canada YHZ

Post by altiplano » Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:33 am

Sounds like a poor job by YHZ Airport:

- runway not adequately treated/monitored (broken down vehicle)
- runway conditions (100% ice) not reported to flight crew
- a runway (RW32)100% into wind has inadequate approach facilities
- after the fact support inadequate (2 hours to deplane)

Where are the AIFs going?
Where are the world highest airline industry taxes going?

But the right places!

As pilots we should be demanding better from the airport authorities and the regulator.
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pelmet
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Re: Air Canada YHZ

Post by pelmet » Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:12 pm

altiplano wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:33 am
Sounds like a poor job by YHZ Airport:

- runway not adequately treated/monitored (broken down vehicle)
- runway conditions (100% ice) not reported to flight crew
- a runway (RW32)100% into wind has inadequate approach facilities
- after the fact support inadequate (2 hours to deplane)

Where are the AIFs going?
Where are the world highest airline industry taxes going?

But the right places!

As pilots we should be demanding better from the airport authorities and the regulator.
Demanding better can result in better but always remember to expect the worst and adjust accordingly, especially in poor weather. Sadly, that's just the way it is.
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altiplano
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Re: Air Canada YHZ

Post by altiplano » Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:19 pm

We don't just expect the worst, we continue to accept the worst. Difficult to adjust when they don't even report it... we need to be able to trust in something... ie. runway condition reports... where do we draw the line?

I hope Air Canada sues Halifax Airport for negligence in this matter.
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Re: Air Canada YHZ

Post by rookiepilot » Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:51 pm

altiplano wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:19 pm
We don't just expect the worst, we continue to accept the worst. Difficult to adjust when they don't even report it... we need to be able to trust in something... ie. runway condition reports... where do we draw the line?

I hope Air Canada sues Halifax Airport for negligence in this matter.
YHZ sounds like something less than a world class airport from the multiple incidents that have happened there, to this bystander. With Halifax weather being as it is, it's difficult to understand their shortcomings in certain areas.
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rookiepilot
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Re: Air Canada YHZ

Post by rookiepilot » Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:15 pm

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-sco ... -1.5043474

Very , very classy of whoever this was, at the same time.

So classy -- Heck, if I was on board, I'd happily split the bill with you if it's your money. Less inclined if it's a full 777!
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fish4life
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Re: Air Canada YHZ

Post by fish4life » Tue Mar 05, 2019 11:20 pm

at least YHZ has nice new bathrooms though...........
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parallel60
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Re: Air Canada YHZ

Post by parallel60 » Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:41 am

Agreed, and a new Jugo Juice or Starbucks.
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goingnowherefast
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Re: Air Canada YHZ

Post by goingnowherefast » Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:13 am

altiplano wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:19 pm
We don't just expect the worst, we continue to accept the worst. Difficult to adjust when they don't even report it... we need to be able to trust in something... ie. runway condition reports... where do we draw the line?
How do we, as pilots, cause this change?
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Daniel Cooper
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Re: Air Canada YHZ

Post by Daniel Cooper » Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:24 am

goingnowherefast wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:13 am
How do we, as pilots, cause this change?
Don't go.
Just another day at what may be statistically the most dangerous airport in the world to operate jet airliners into.
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pelmet
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Re: Air Canada YHZ

Post by pelmet » Wed Mar 06, 2019 9:06 am

Daniel Cooper wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:24 am
goingnowherefast wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:13 am
How do we, as pilots, cause this change?
Don't go.
Just another day at what may be statistically the most dangerous airport in the world to operate jet airliners into.
Nice easy thing to say as an anonymous poster on a thread. Bottom line...you will be going in most cases when the weather is poor. So what to do after complaining on AvCanada about the airport, or any other airport/subject airport. Assume the worst, expect that the end of the runway and the taxiways will be in poor condition, as I have read about so many times over the years, and act accordingly.

One has to deal with the realities of today even while trying to change things for tomorrow.

All this keeping in mind that it is not really known what happened in the specific situation involving this 767.
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altiplano
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Re: Air Canada YHZ

Post by altiplano » Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:05 pm

Sure it's known.

The YHZ runway treatment truck/plow broke down.
YHZ was operating on a runway with a 90° crosswind because they have inadequate facilities on the in to wind runway.
Nobody thought to report the runway condition down there to the crew... told them some taxiways were closed and to get off on the end.

Those guys were along for the ride when the aircraft weathercocked sideways on the unreported ice.

How do we change it?

Maybe with unified voices from our associations directly to the public. Here's a few things I'd start with:

"Your AIFs are being spent on bullshit."

"You are paying the highest taxes in the world on air travel and not receiving service to represent that."

"Canadian "non-profit" Airport Authorities are too busy shopping for art, and getting wooed for contracts by architects and developers, or trying to lure another hotel or retailer, to look after, let alone improve, the actual safe operation of the airport."

Airport operations are just a hassle for these guys. They may as well be running a shopping mall... In fact they'd rather be running a shopping mall...
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Braun
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Re: Air Canada YHZ

Post by Braun » Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:40 pm

Just out of curiousity how would guys rate the snow removal at the other major aiports (YYC, YVR, YYZ and YUL)?
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Re: Air Canada YHZ

Post by kevenv » Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:49 pm

altiplano wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:05 pm
Nobody thought to report the runway condition down there to the crew... told them some taxiways were closed and to get off on the end.

Those guys were along for the ride when the aircraft weathercocked sideways on the unreported ice.
These statements are based on what? You know for a fact that they were not told about the ice and braking condition from an aircraft that landed before them? You sound like you have some inside info. Care to share?
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rookiepilot
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Re: Air Canada YHZ

Post by rookiepilot » Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:28 pm

altiplano wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:05 pm

"Canadian "non-profit" Airport Authorities are too busy shopping for art,

Airport operations are just a hassle for these guys. They may as well be running a shopping mall... In fact they'd rather be running a shopping mall...
Those luxury "fact finding" trips must be fun too. Just like the government.
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teacher
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Re: Air Canada YHZ

Post by teacher » Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:56 am

A small update but nothing really new. From the sounds of it the exit was in worse condition than the runway and the wind helped the poor folks along.

https://www.thechronicleherald.ca/news/ ... rt-290404/
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pelmet
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Re: Air Canada YHZ

Post by pelmet » Fri Mar 08, 2019 8:46 am

teacher wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:56 am
A small update but nothing really new. From the sounds of it the exit was in worse condition than the runway and the wind helped the poor folks along.
Always beware of those exits/taxiways. The snowplows are frequently concentrating on the runways. I believe that UAL had similar in ORD recently. A JAL 787 in Narita as well.

Be paranoid and go really slow.
http://avherald.com/h?article=4c31631a
https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=221405
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pelmet
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Re: Air Canada YHZ

Post by pelmet » Fri Mar 08, 2019 1:35 pm

According to a post on another website, the weather was....

CYHZ 042209Z 32024G29KT 1 1/4SM R23/3000VP6000FT/U R14/3000VP6000FT/U -FZDZ BR VV002 M01/M01 A2914 RMK FG8 PRESRR SLP875

Landing runway was 23.

This link has a further link to the ATC recordings....

https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/619 ... st10409976

There is post incident conversation on the second recording at 5:40. The controller mentions that they are on the runway so it looks like a runway issue not a taxiway as may have been suggested in the news article.

Pretty strong crosswind and a temp of -1 should be an attention-getter on wet/contaminated runways. Based on the winds, I wonder if a cold front had come through, perhaps with dropping temps.

I do remember a couple of loss of control incidents on landing at one of the companies that I have worked for where the the runway had quickly become slippery combined with big crosswinds. One excursion, one loss of control temporarily.

I see that runway 32 at Halifax doesn't even have a taxiway at the end making it difficult for a 767 even if he could get in that day.
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Re: Air Canada YHZ

Post by HiFlyChick » Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:41 am

CADORS doesn't mention departure from the runway, despite what media has been reporting:

CADORS: Report
Record # 1
CADORS Number:2019A0219
Occurrence Category(ies): Aerodrome
Loss of control - ground

Occurrence Information
Occurrence Type:Incident
Occurrence Date:2019-03-04
Occurrence Time:2231 Z
Day Or Night:night-time
Fatalities:0
Injuries:0
Canadian Aerodrome ID:CYHZ
Aerodrome Name:HALIFAX / STANFIELD INTL NS (CYHZ)
Occurrence Location:HALIFAX / STANFIELD INTL NS (CYHZ)
Province:Nova Scotia
TC Region:Atlantic Region
Country:Canada
World Area:North America
Reported By: NAV CANADA
AOR Number:245887-V3
TSB Class Of Investigation:
TSB Occurrence No:

Occurrence Event Information
Aerodrome, runway or taxiway shutdown
Aircraft Information
Registration Mark:FTCA
Foreign Registration:
Flight #:ACA614
Flight Rule:IFR
Aircraft Category:Aeroplane
Country of Registration:Canada
Make:BOEING Model:767-375
Year Built:1989
Amateur Built:No
Engine Make:GENERAL ELECTRIC
Engine Model:CF6-80C2B6F
Engine Type:Turbo fan
Gear Type:Land
Phase of Flight:Roll Out
Damage:No Damage
Owner:Air Canada
Operator:AIR CANADA (5262)
Operator Type:Commercial
CARs Subpart:705

Aircraft Event Information
Loss of control - on ground
Occurrence Summary
Date Entered:2019-03-06
Narrative:
An Air Canada Boeing 767-375 (C-FTCA/ACA614) from Toronto/Pearson Int'l, ON (CYYZ) to Halifax/Stanfield Int'l, NS (CYHZ) landed on Runway 23 and, during rollout, slid and turned 180 degrees. Runway 05/23 was closed until the aircraft could be towed off. Operations were impacted due to the concurrent closure of Runway 14/32, resulting in multiple diversions. The aircraft was removed from the runway at 0245Z, and Runway 05/23 re-opened at 0400Z.

Occurrence Summary
Date Entered:2019-03-08
Narrative:
UPDATE: AOR-245887-V3: Narrative updated as follows: "...Runway 05/23 was closed until the aircraft could be towed off. No injuries reported. Operations were impacted..."
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Re: Air Canada YHZ

Post by HiFlyChick » Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:45 am

altiplano wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:05 pm
...
The YHZ runway treatment truck/plow broke down....
Are you based in YHZ, fly in there, do ramp work, there that night, know someone ...?
Just wondering where you came by this information
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altiplano
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Re: Air Canada YHZ

Post by altiplano » Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:21 am

HiFlyChick wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:45 am
altiplano wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:05 pm
...
The YHZ runway treatment truck/plow broke down....
Are you based in YHZ, fly in there, do ramp work, there that night, know someone ...?
Just wondering where you came by this information
For one, it's in published accounts of the incident:
the chemical truck had just broken down while trying to spray the runway
http://avherald.com/h?article=4c501c39
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pelmet
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Re: Air Canada YHZ

Post by pelmet » Mon Mar 11, 2019 4:54 pm

Classic flash freeze. One has to be pretty brave to land in conditions like this. And it shows how it is a good idea to request a braking action report from the previous landing aircraft if it is not provided(and maybe the current temperature). They might have gone around if they knew that it had been reported as.....Very Poor. Maybe ATC should provide this info but it just shows that you have to fend for yourself and proactively get information if it is not provided.




Air Canada Boeing 767-300, registration C-FTCA performing flight AC-614 from Toronto,ON to Halifax,NS (Canada) with 211 people on board, landed on Halifax's runway 23 at 18:30L (22:30Z) after performing a CAT II ILS approach. ATC had advised that taxiway C and B had not been cleared and were not usable and instructed the flight to vacate the runway via taxiway A at the end of the runway. Subsequently tower advised the end of the runway was "very slippery". About 2570 meters down the runway the aircraft skided, turned around by 180 degrees and came to a stop in a snow bank short of taxiway B. The passengers disembarked onto the runway via stairs and were taken to the terminal.

Ground services reported the runway was 100% ice, the chemical truck had just broken down while trying to spray the runway, "not looking good".

A preceding landing reported the braking action was "very poor".

The aerodrome was closed for about 4 hours as result.

The Canadian TSB have dispatched a team of investigators on site.

The airline reported the aircraft could not taxi to the apron because of poor weather conditions. The aircraft was inspected by maintenance and towed to the apron.

On Mar 7th 2019 NAV Canada reported the aircraft "landed on Runway 23 and, during rollout, slid and turned 180 degrees. Runway 05/23 was closed until the aircraft could be towed off. Operations were impacted due to the concurrent closure of Runway 14/32, resulting in multiple diversions." The runway was closed for 5.5 hours.

Related NOTAMs:
A0736/19 NOTAMN
Q) CZQM/QMRLC/IV/NBO/A /000/999/4452N06330W005
A) CYHZ B) 1903042100 C) 1903042300
E) RWY 05/23 CLSD

A0739/19 NOTAMN
Q) CZQM/QMRLC/IV/NBO/A /000/999/4452N06330W005
A) CYHZ B) 1903042300 C) 1903050002
E) RWY 14/32 CLSD

A0741/19 NOTAMR A0738/19
Q) CZQM/QMRLC/IV/NBO/A /000/999/4452N06330W005
A) CYHZ B) 1903042235 C) 1903050200
E) RWY 05/23 CLSD

Metars:
CYHZ 050000Z 31021G28KT 3SM BR OVC002 M05/M05 A2925 RMK ST8 PRESRR SLP914=
CYHZ 042334Z 33020G29KT 4SM BR OVC003 M05/M05 A2922 RMK ST8 PRESRR SLP903=
CYHZ 042300Z 33023G29KT 2SM -FZDZ BR OVC003 M04/M04 A2919 RMK ST8 SLP892=
CYHZ 042240Z 33021G33KT 2SM -FZDZ BR OVC003 M03/M03 A2917 RMK ST8 PRESRR SLP885=
CYHZ 042234Z 32022G31KT 2SM -FZDZ BR OVC002 M03/M03 A2916 RMK ST8 PRESRR SLP882=
CYHZ 042229Z 33024G31KT 2SM -FZDZ BR OVC004 M02/M02 A2916 RMK ST8 PRESRR SLP882=

CYHZ 042209Z 32024G29KT 1 1/4SM R23/3000VP6000FT/U R14/3000VP6000FT/U -FZDZ BR VV002 M01/M01 A2914 RMK FG8 PRESRR SLP875=
CYHZ 042200Z 32019KT 1/4SM R23/3500FT/N R14/3000FT/N -DZ FG VV001 00/00 A2912 RMK FG8 PRESRR SLP869=
CYHZ 042127Z 34013KT 1/4SM R23/2400V4500FT/ R14/1600FT/N FG VV001 01/01 A2911 RMK FG8 SLP864=
CYHZ 042123Z 35011KT 3/8SM R23/2600FT/N R14/2000FT/N FG VV002 01/01 A2911 RMK FG8 SLP864=
CYHZ 042108Z 36009KT 1/2SM R23/2600FT/N R14/3500FT/D FG OVC002 01/01 A2911 RMK FG2ST6 SLP865=
CYHZ 042100Z 01011KT 1SM R23/4500VP6000FT/D R14/3000V4500FT/D -DZ BR OVC002 01/01 A2911 RMK ST8 SLP864=
CYHZ 042049Z 02011KT 2 1/2SM R14/5500VP6000FT/D -DZ BR OVC002 01/01 A2911 RMK ST8 PRESFR SLP865=
CYHZ 042000Z 04004KT 310V080 1 3/4SM R23/4500VP6000FT/D -RA BR OVC004 02/02 A2917 RMK ST8 SLP885=
CYHZ 041922Z CCA 11027G40KT 2SM -DZ BR OVC005 01/01 A2914 RMK ST8 PRESFR SLP876=
CYHZ 041906Z 11021G30KT 1 1/4SM R23/4000V5500FT/D R14/5500VP6000FT/D -RA BR OVC004 01/00 A2918 RMK ST8 PRESFR SLP890=
CYHZ 041900Z 11022G32KT 2 1/2SM R23/5000FT/N -RA BR OVC007 00/00 A2919 RMK NS8 PRESFR SLP894=
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Re: Air Canada YHZ

Post by Donald » Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:50 pm

With regards to "a preceding landing reported the braking action as very poor", was the air Canada crew aware of this? What was the aircraft type? And what is the crosswind limit for Air Canada B767's with a report of poor braking action?
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