Air Canada YHZ

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HiFlyChick
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Re: Air Canada YHZ

Post by HiFlyChick »

CADORS doesn't mention departure from the runway, despite what media has been reporting:

CADORS: Report
Record # 1
CADORS Number:2019A0219
Occurrence Category(ies): Aerodrome
Loss of control - ground

Occurrence Information
Occurrence Type:Incident
Occurrence Date:2019-03-04
Occurrence Time:2231 Z
Day Or Night:night-time
Fatalities:0
Injuries:0
Canadian Aerodrome ID:CYHZ
Aerodrome Name:HALIFAX / STANFIELD INTL NS (CYHZ)
Occurrence Location:HALIFAX / STANFIELD INTL NS (CYHZ)
Province:Nova Scotia
TC Region:Atlantic Region
Country:Canada
World Area:North America
Reported By: NAV CANADA
AOR Number:245887-V3
TSB Class Of Investigation:
TSB Occurrence No:

Occurrence Event Information
Aerodrome, runway or taxiway shutdown
Aircraft Information
Registration Mark:FTCA
Foreign Registration:
Flight #:ACA614
Flight Rule:IFR
Aircraft Category:Aeroplane
Country of Registration:Canada
Make:BOEING Model:767-375
Year Built:1989
Amateur Built:No
Engine Make:GENERAL ELECTRIC
Engine Model:CF6-80C2B6F
Engine Type:Turbo fan
Gear Type:Land
Phase of Flight:Roll Out
Damage:No Damage
Owner:Air Canada
Operator:AIR CANADA (5262)
Operator Type:Commercial
CARs Subpart:705

Aircraft Event Information
Loss of control - on ground
Occurrence Summary
Date Entered:2019-03-06
Narrative:
An Air Canada Boeing 767-375 (C-FTCA/ACA614) from Toronto/Pearson Int'l, ON (CYYZ) to Halifax/Stanfield Int'l, NS (CYHZ) landed on Runway 23 and, during rollout, slid and turned 180 degrees. Runway 05/23 was closed until the aircraft could be towed off. Operations were impacted due to the concurrent closure of Runway 14/32, resulting in multiple diversions. The aircraft was removed from the runway at 0245Z, and Runway 05/23 re-opened at 0400Z.

Occurrence Summary
Date Entered:2019-03-08
Narrative:
UPDATE: AOR-245887-V3: Narrative updated as follows: "...Runway 05/23 was closed until the aircraft could be towed off. No injuries reported. Operations were impacted..."
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Re: Air Canada YHZ

Post by HiFlyChick »

altiplano wrote: Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:05 pm ...
The YHZ runway treatment truck/plow broke down....
Are you based in YHZ, fly in there, do ramp work, there that night, know someone ...?
Just wondering where you came by this information
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Re: Air Canada YHZ

Post by altiplano »

HiFlyChick wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:45 am
altiplano wrote: Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:05 pm ...
The YHZ runway treatment truck/plow broke down....
Are you based in YHZ, fly in there, do ramp work, there that night, know someone ...?
Just wondering where you came by this information
For one, it's in published accounts of the incident:
the chemical truck had just broken down while trying to spray the runway
http://avherald.com/h?article=4c501c39
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Re: Air Canada YHZ

Post by pelmet »

Classic flash freeze. One has to be pretty brave to land in conditions like this. And it shows how it is a good idea to request a braking action report from the previous landing aircraft if it is not provided(and maybe the current temperature). They might have gone around if they knew that it had been reported as.....Very Poor. Maybe ATC should provide this info but it just shows that you have to fend for yourself and proactively get information if it is not provided.




Air Canada Boeing 767-300, registration C-FTCA performing flight AC-614 from Toronto,ON to Halifax,NS (Canada) with 211 people on board, landed on Halifax's runway 23 at 18:30L (22:30Z) after performing a CAT II ILS approach. ATC had advised that taxiway C and B had not been cleared and were not usable and instructed the flight to vacate the runway via taxiway A at the end of the runway. Subsequently tower advised the end of the runway was "very slippery". About 2570 meters down the runway the aircraft skided, turned around by 180 degrees and came to a stop in a snow bank short of taxiway B. The passengers disembarked onto the runway via stairs and were taken to the terminal.

Ground services reported the runway was 100% ice, the chemical truck had just broken down while trying to spray the runway, "not looking good".

A preceding landing reported the braking action was "very poor".

The aerodrome was closed for about 4 hours as result.

The Canadian TSB have dispatched a team of investigators on site.

The airline reported the aircraft could not taxi to the apron because of poor weather conditions. The aircraft was inspected by maintenance and towed to the apron.

On Mar 7th 2019 NAV Canada reported the aircraft "landed on Runway 23 and, during rollout, slid and turned 180 degrees. Runway 05/23 was closed until the aircraft could be towed off. Operations were impacted due to the concurrent closure of Runway 14/32, resulting in multiple diversions." The runway was closed for 5.5 hours.

Related NOTAMs:
A0736/19 NOTAMN
Q) CZQM/QMRLC/IV/NBO/A /000/999/4452N06330W005
A) CYHZ B) 1903042100 C) 1903042300
E) RWY 05/23 CLSD

A0739/19 NOTAMN
Q) CZQM/QMRLC/IV/NBO/A /000/999/4452N06330W005
A) CYHZ B) 1903042300 C) 1903050002
E) RWY 14/32 CLSD

A0741/19 NOTAMR A0738/19
Q) CZQM/QMRLC/IV/NBO/A /000/999/4452N06330W005
A) CYHZ B) 1903042235 C) 1903050200
E) RWY 05/23 CLSD

Metars:
CYHZ 050000Z 31021G28KT 3SM BR OVC002 M05/M05 A2925 RMK ST8 PRESRR SLP914=
CYHZ 042334Z 33020G29KT 4SM BR OVC003 M05/M05 A2922 RMK ST8 PRESRR SLP903=
CYHZ 042300Z 33023G29KT 2SM -FZDZ BR OVC003 M04/M04 A2919 RMK ST8 SLP892=
CYHZ 042240Z 33021G33KT 2SM -FZDZ BR OVC003 M03/M03 A2917 RMK ST8 PRESRR SLP885=
CYHZ 042234Z 32022G31KT 2SM -FZDZ BR OVC002 M03/M03 A2916 RMK ST8 PRESRR SLP882=
CYHZ 042229Z 33024G31KT 2SM -FZDZ BR OVC004 M02/M02 A2916 RMK ST8 PRESRR SLP882=

CYHZ 042209Z 32024G29KT 1 1/4SM R23/3000VP6000FT/U R14/3000VP6000FT/U -FZDZ BR VV002 M01/M01 A2914 RMK FG8 PRESRR SLP875=
CYHZ 042200Z 32019KT 1/4SM R23/3500FT/N R14/3000FT/N -DZ FG VV001 00/00 A2912 RMK FG8 PRESRR SLP869=
CYHZ 042127Z 34013KT 1/4SM R23/2400V4500FT/ R14/1600FT/N FG VV001 01/01 A2911 RMK FG8 SLP864=
CYHZ 042123Z 35011KT 3/8SM R23/2600FT/N R14/2000FT/N FG VV002 01/01 A2911 RMK FG8 SLP864=
CYHZ 042108Z 36009KT 1/2SM R23/2600FT/N R14/3500FT/D FG OVC002 01/01 A2911 RMK FG2ST6 SLP865=
CYHZ 042100Z 01011KT 1SM R23/4500VP6000FT/D R14/3000V4500FT/D -DZ BR OVC002 01/01 A2911 RMK ST8 SLP864=
CYHZ 042049Z 02011KT 2 1/2SM R14/5500VP6000FT/D -DZ BR OVC002 01/01 A2911 RMK ST8 PRESFR SLP865=
CYHZ 042000Z 04004KT 310V080 1 3/4SM R23/4500VP6000FT/D -RA BR OVC004 02/02 A2917 RMK ST8 SLP885=
CYHZ 041922Z CCA 11027G40KT 2SM -DZ BR OVC005 01/01 A2914 RMK ST8 PRESFR SLP876=
CYHZ 041906Z 11021G30KT 1 1/4SM R23/4000V5500FT/D R14/5500VP6000FT/D -RA BR OVC004 01/00 A2918 RMK ST8 PRESFR SLP890=
CYHZ 041900Z 11022G32KT 2 1/2SM R23/5000FT/N -RA BR OVC007 00/00 A2919 RMK NS8 PRESFR SLP894=
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Donald
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Re: Air Canada YHZ

Post by Donald »

With regards to "a preceding landing reported the braking action as very poor", was the air Canada crew aware of this? What was the aircraft type? And what is the crosswind limit for Air Canada B767's with a report of poor braking action?
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Re: Air Canada YHZ

Post by HiFlyChick »

Can anyone comment on the reliability of info from that site? I just wonder where they would have gotten this info....
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Re: Air Canada YHZ

Post by altiplano »

Do you have information to the contrary? Were you at the airport? Is your friend the runway treatment truck driver? Were you at the Starbucks?

Avherald seems like a reliable publication in my experience. Certainly no reason apparent to doubt it.
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Re: Air Canada YHZ

Post by Jet Jockey »

Why did they perform a CAT II approach in CAT I weather?

Aren't CAT II approaches limited to a maximum crosswind component of 15kts?
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Re: Air Canada YHZ

Post by Victory »

It's kind of surprising YHZ doesn't have an ILS on RWY32. Why wouldn't they?
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Re: Air Canada YHZ

Post by rookiepilot »

Victory wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:36 am It's kind of surprising YHZ doesn't have an ILS on RWY32. Why wouldn't they?
Nor on 05.......

Nor an arrestor bed system. It would seem to me YHZ would be an excellent place for one.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enginee ... tor_system
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Re: Air Canada YHZ

Post by pelmet »

Victory wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:36 am It's kind of surprising YHZ doesn't have an ILS on RWY32. Why wouldn't they?
Over the long term, approaches at airports are moving toward gbas/gls/Ian type approaches. ILS has issues that can cause problems and is expensive to install. It will disappear just like the ndb
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Re: Air Canada YHZ

Post by rookiepilot »

pelmet wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:59 am
Over the long term, approaches at airports are moving toward gbas/gls/Ian type approaches. ILS has issues that can cause problems and is expensive to install. It will disappear just like the ndb
I'm sure the next pilot flying into YHZ during adverse winds and weather is deeply comforted by that fact.
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Re: Air Canada YHZ

Post by pelmet »

rookiepilot wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:14 am
pelmet wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:59 am
Over the long term, approaches at airports are moving toward gbas/gls/Ian type approaches. ILS has issues that can cause problems and is expensive to install. It will disappear just like the ndb
I'm sure the next pilot flying into YHZ during adverse winds and weather is deeply comforted by that fact.
It is....the way it is. And if the conditions are not satisfactory, a pilot takes deep comfort in diverting to their alternate.
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Re: Air Canada YHZ

Post by rookiepilot »

pelmet wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:47 am
a pilot takes deep comfort in diverting to their alternate.
An Alternate! :rolleyes: Never would have thought of that one. Thanks! :lol:

Of course the comment stream was about the airport infrastructure....... :mrgreen:

One would think for a major airport, with horrid winter weather, it should have an ILS to at least three runways, as St Johns does.....
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Re: Air Canada YHZ

Post by HiFlyChick »

altiplano wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:11 am Do you have information to the contrary? Were you at the airport? Is your friend the runway treatment truck driver? Were you at the Starbucks?

Avherald seems like a reliable publication in my experience. Certainly no reason apparent to doubt it.
It's on the internet - I like to know where something on the internet came from if there is no other source stating the same info. Just thinking that the media would've been all over the info about the truck, so either (a) they just didn't find it online or (b) it's incorrect
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Re: Air Canada YHZ

Post by altiplano »

HiFlyChick wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:06 pm
altiplano wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:11 am Do you have information to the contrary? Were you at the airport? Is your friend the runway treatment truck driver? Were you at the Starbucks?

Avherald seems like a reliable publication in my experience. Certainly no reason apparent to doubt it.
It's on the internet - I like to know where something on the internet came from if there is no other source stating the same info. Just thinking that the media would've been all over the info about the truck, so either (a) they just didn't find it online or (b) it's incorrect
The mainstream media didn't report it so it can't be true?

LOL...

We shall see... avherald isn't the only source I have heard it from.
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Re: Air Canada YHZ

Post by goingnowherefast »

One would think that the national carrier with multi-million dollar airplanes could afford WAAS/LPV upgrades too.

Don't see AC ordering any 747-8s. Why would YHZ buy an ILS for an LPV equipped runway? Let's get with the times.
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Re: Air Canada YHZ

Post by pelmet »

rookiepilot wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:04 pm One would think for a major airport, with horrid winter weather, it should have an ILS to at least three runways, as St Johns does.....
goingnowherefast wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:00 pm One would think that the national carrier with multi-million dollar airplanes could afford WAAS/LPV upgrades too.

Why would YHZ buy an ILS for an LPV equipped runway? Let's get with the times.
Now we are getting some actual intelligent input about infrastructure instead of mindlessly demanding more ILS's. Airlines have choices when it comes to their navigational capabilities. I seem to remember AC upgrading their Airbuses after the YHZ accident.A pilot might take comfort that their airline is spending their money on giving them the tools to be able to utilize the available approaches.

That being said, I wonder if in this particular incident aircraft had already decided due to runway length not to land on 32. After all, other aircraft were successfully completing approaches onto it at the time of the incident.
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Last edited by pelmet on Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Air Canada YHZ

Post by HiFlyChick »

altiplano wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:49 pm The mainstream media didn't report it so it can't be true?
My logic is that the mainstream media will jump on any "juicy" tidbit they can get, so if they saw this and didn't publish....
If it was true, I would expect a front page headline on the local paper and leading the local news about the truck "AIRPORT TRUCK BREAKS DOWN - AIRPLANE SLIDES OFF RUNWAY AS A RESULT!" The general masses can understanding that without getting into lengthy discussions about flash freezing, into wind runway, lack of ILS, etc

I must confess that I too wonder why everyone is so appalled that YHZ doesn't have an ILS to 32 and 05 instead of putting any onus on the carriers to get WAAS. I've heard the counter-argument from folks who say that from a strictly business point of view, if Halifax wants to increase its cargo business and grow as a world class hub then they need to entice carriers with good facilities (i.e. cater to everyone, including those without RNAV).

What interests me is what it would cost to put RNAV/WAAS into an airliner vs. the cost of the actual airliner itself. Does the current fleet have RNAV, just not WAAS?
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Re: Air Canada YHZ

Post by rookiepilot »

HiFlyChick wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:38 am
I must confess that I too wonder why everyone is so appalled that YHZ doesn't have an ILS to 32 and 05 instead of putting any onus on the carriers to get WAAS. I've heard the counter-argument from folks who say that from a strictly business point of view, if Halifax wants to increase its cargo business and grow as a world class hub then they need to entice carriers with good facilities (i.e. cater to everyone, including those without RNAV).
A) because of their weather, which can be demanding.

B) because of the multiple indicidents there, would seem to demand someone take a good look at the facilities, and I don't mean the Tim Hortons.

C) your second sentence, and the type of traffic Halifax has and wants to attract, if they wish to grow. Applies to any major airport. Airports are major economic drivers for a region, and maybe some cargo operators won't want to risk their birds there. And maybe the lack of good facilities has held Halifax back, before WASS even existed.

It's Small town thinking.

If Halifax was concerned about the cost -- and they should have done this many, many years ago --- they certainly could take a customer survey and see what people say about what they want out their airport.

It's not up to carriers to be forced to adapt, logical as that might sound, they can choose to go somewhere else. It's up to the airport to build and maintain proper facilities to attract business, and that takes money. The provider of a service adapts to their customer.

By Pelmets logic, clearly doesn't understand business in the slightest, Pearson would could decommission it's ILS network too, as it costs lots of money to maintain and keep certification, and all airlines should be using WASS anyway. :roll:
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