Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

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AlbatrossFeather
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by AlbatrossFeather »

usually when they do modifications after the incidents and accident, planes change in a better way.

looks like the more they modify the aircraft the worse it gets...

Not a Boeing fan I am. but this is getting worse every month.

Just saying...
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by tsgas »

complexintentions wrote: Sun Mar 10, 2019 2:14 pm What a 200-hr FO has to do with a probable flight control problem, I have no idea. That's just cheap bigotry or ignorance of how things are done outside of the narrow little confines of Canuckistan.

And Ethiopian actually is one of the most highly-regarded airlines in Africa, with an very modern fleet of narrow and widebody equipment and extremely experienced expat workforce.

Addis is a challenging airport, but I don't think a factor in the accident.
'97 Tercel wrote: Sun Mar 10, 2019 1:10 pm I'm sure Boeing is scrambling... (and sweating)
I agree. And I'm a Boeing fan. But the optics are terrible. Statistically, nothing like this has happened in the last 40 years. (Two crashes of a brand-new variant in 5 months.)

Maybe Boeing should get back to making really incredible aircraft and stop making watered-down products that only please accountants.
your "bigotry" buddy is being anti-Canadian and not being able to read. It was mentioned that some "Canadian" airlines have started the practice of using ultra low time pilots . Insurance companies base their rates based on "facts" and not on your personal PC/liberal views. :roll:
As far as the cause of the accident , the accident report hasn't been completed, as of yet.
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by Daniel Cooper »

It's strange to me that Boeing didn't include a description of the MCAS system in the FCOM. Why hide it? Perhaps they were afraid of pilots complaining about it and ALPA getting involved to force an override switch.
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by co-joe »

lostaviator wrote: Sun Mar 10, 2019 12:17 pm While I think 200 hour pilots do pose a potential risk to aviation safety, I don't think it's reasonable to let speculation on this incident drift in that direction. There are statements out there stating the pilots declared a control issue and the plane went down in conditions a 5 hour ppl student could keep a plane straight and level in.

I'm thinking Boeing is going to have a bad few months. Losing 2 airplanes (out of the ~300 produced) with ages under 0.5 years, is not a great statistic.
Not 250 hour, 200 hour. So this was the FO's first flight on their commercial license?

Would it be fair to say that whatever went wrong, they were likely of absolutely no help to the Captain?
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by ogc »

Apparently Cayman Airways has grounded their 737 max

https://mobile.twitter.com/CaymanAirway ... 0223787008
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by FlyGy »

ogc wrote: Sun Mar 10, 2019 6:04 pm Apparently Cayman Airways has grounded their 737 max

https://mobile.twitter.com/CaymanAirway ... 0223787008
Their whole fleet?!?! :shock:
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by lostaviator »

China has grounded the 737 Max fleet in their country. Yahoo mentions there are 60 in use in China.
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Last edited by lostaviator on Sun Mar 10, 2019 6:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by telex »

I read the whole fleet of MAX aircraft. Which is two. (in reply to Flygy)
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by Daniel Cooper »

lostaviator wrote: Sun Mar 10, 2019 6:26 pm China has grounded the 737 Max fleet in their country. Yahoo mentions there are 60 in use in China.
China saw their chance to take a stab at America Inc and took it.
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by Eric Janson »

Daniel Cooper wrote: Sun Mar 10, 2019 2:59 pm It's strange to me that Boeing didn't include a description of the MCAS system in the FCOM. Why hide it? Perhaps they were afraid of pilots complaining about it and ALPA getting involved to force an override switch.
Nothing strange about it - it's part of the dumbing down of Aviation.

If you compare old manuals to new then you'll see a lot of information has been removed.

The Philosophy is that you are given enough information to operate the aircraft safely and that's it.

The manufacturer wants to sell aircraft in parts of the World where skill levels are at a different level - no point selling an aircraft if the Locals can't pass the training. Just dumb everything down to the point they can pass a check.

You'd be quite shocked at the poor standards in certain parts of the World - accident rates speak for themselves.
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by Heliian »

Eric Janson wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:03 am
Daniel Cooper wrote: Sun Mar 10, 2019 2:59 pm It's strange to me that Boeing didn't include a description of the MCAS system in the FCOM. Why hide it? Perhaps they were afraid of pilots complaining about it and ALPA getting involved to force an override switch.
Nothing strange about it - it's part of the dumbing down of Aviation.

If you compare old manuals to new then you'll see a lot of information has been removed.

The Philosophy is that you are given enough information to operate the aircraft safely and that's it.

The manufacturer wants to sell aircraft in parts of the World where skill levels are at a different level - no point selling an aircraft if the Locals can't pass the training. Just dumb everything down to the point they can pass a check.

You'd be quite shocked at the poor standards in certain parts of the World - accident rates speak for themselves.
I would hope that as technology advances, the need for any type of pilot can be removed, that way you can't blame a human influence. I understand that some countries may not have the high standards we have here in Canada but Ethiopian is a respected airline that is still flying in Canada. The FDR has been recovered, we will see what is behind this crash.

Maybe Boeing has put out an inferior product in trying to keep up with Global demand.

We do know that the aircraft had a technical problem on departure, I'm not going to lay blame just yet.
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by phillyfan »

I'm buying Boeing stock this morning. "Buy the Fear" They have orders for 5000 of these things. They are not going anywhere. Shares dropped 12% after the Lion Air crash and bounced back. This is an easy 12 to 15% moneymaker.
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by tbaylx »

phillyfan wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:28 am I'm buying Boeing stock this morning. "Buy the Fear" They have orders for 5000 of these things. They are not going anywhere. Shares dropped 12% after the Lion Air crash and bounced back. This is an easy 12 to 15% moneymaker.
Yup, just did the same. Regardless if it's MCAS related or not, the reasons for a runaway stab don't matter, the procedure is the same. Boeing is still a long term solid buy and it just went on sale this morning
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by GRK2 »

Wow...pretty cold. How about you don't talk about your awesome business prowess here on this site? :roll:
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by GGCC »

Lot of talk about grounding the 737 Max type....
I wonder how the crews flying them feel about the aircraft......
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by tbaylx »

GRK2 wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:57 am Wow...pretty cold. How about you don't talk about your awesome business prowess here on this site? :roll:
Nothing cold or prowess related about buying into a long term investment. Because they happened to be the manufacturer of the aircraft that crashed has nothing to do with investing in them.
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by tbaylx »

GGCC wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:40 am Lot of talk about grounding the 737 Max type....
I wonder how the crews flying them feel about the aircraft......
Pretty premature considering no one knows the cause of the Ethiopian crash. There are plenty of carriers worldwide operating the Max safely and reliably.

Lets assume worst case scenario and its a faulty AOA sensor and a mishandled MCAS response. Emergency AD issued changing the FCC software and removing the MCAS trim inputs and the fleet is flying again. Long term it gets fixed with software or addition of a third AOA sensor. The aircraft will continue to be bought and put into service, same as the 787 after the battery issues got fixed.
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by digits_ »

Eric Janson wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:03 am
Daniel Cooper wrote: Sun Mar 10, 2019 2:59 pm It's strange to me that Boeing didn't include a description of the MCAS system in the FCOM. Why hide it? Perhaps they were afraid of pilots complaining about it and ALPA getting involved to force an override switch.
Nothing strange about it - it's part of the dumbing down of Aviation.

If you compare old manuals to new then you'll see a lot of information has been removed.

The Philosophy is that you are given enough information to operate the aircraft safely and that's it.

The manufacturer wants to sell aircraft in parts of the World where skill levels are at a different level - no point selling an aircraft if the Locals can't pass the training. Just dumb everything down to the point they can pass a check.

You'd be quite shocked at the poor standards in certain parts of the World - accident rates speak for themselves.
Even Canada and the US. F.. S... has pretty poor training and standards nowadays as well. Pretty sad for an organisation specialised in training :|

To be fair, it's to be expected though when training is paid for by the customer who also pays for the checkride. There is no incentive for better/harder training, as everyone would just go to the easier tranining at the competitor.
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As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by tsgas »

digits_ wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:09 am
Eric Janson wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:03 am
Daniel Cooper wrote: Sun Mar 10, 2019 2:59 pm It's strange to me that Boeing didn't include a description of the MCAS system in the FCOM. Why hide it? Perhaps they were afraid of pilots complaining about it and ALPA getting involved to force an override switch.
Nothing strange about it - it's part of the dumbing down of Aviation.

If you compare old manuals to new then you'll see a lot of information has been removed.

The Philosophy is that you are given enough information to operate the aircraft safely and that's it.

The manufacturer wants to sell aircraft in parts of the World where skill levels are at a different level - no point selling an aircraft if the Locals can't pass the training. Just dumb everything down to the point they can pass a check.

You'd be quite shocked at the poor standards in certain parts of the World - accident rates speak for themselves.
Even Canada and the US. F.. S... has pretty poor training and standards nowadays as well. Pretty sad for an organisation specialised in training :|

To be fair, it's to be expected though when training is paid for by the customer who also pays for the checkride. There is no incentive for better/harder training, as everyone would just go to the easier tranining at the competitor.
It's all part of the "no child left behind" culture.
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by digits_ »

tsgas wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:25 am It's all part of the "no child left behind" culture.
And the "we have to hire literally everybody who applies because we can't attract anyone else with our current salaries" culture
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As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
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