Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

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Heliian
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by atc_is_god »

boeingboy wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:02 pm
In addition to a fix for the airplane, if they keep the MCAS system (instead of designing a whole new wing or tail for the airplane), they will have to train the pilots who fly it to deal with its failure. Right now, there is not a single Max pilot in the world who has been trained for this failure because - there isn't a single simulator in the world that can replicate it. But when they do, all those pilots that claimed "it's just a trim runaway" are going to have a very eye opening simulator session.
JEEZ! - you should be a writer for Hollywood.

That is such an overdramatized sum of the events. Seriously - you don't think a professional crew can deal with 2 or 3 things that come at them in stages over 13 min? I guess then by your account the crew of Quantas 32 should have met their maker about a hundred times. Prioritize - I don't care what's going on - but if my airplane is trying to trim me into the ground constantly - it would not take very long to realize that is the priority and to disable it. By that time - they had already figured out the stick shaker was a false indication as was the airspeed disagree - so all they had to do was cut out the stab trim when it started running amuck. Instead they spent the next 10 min overriding it with the trim switch - when they should have just isolated it all together. During the whole time they were able to takeoff, climb out, change course, and acknowledge ATC instructions.

Not a fun day at the office - but boys and girls - this is where we make the big bucks.

I wonder if some of you have actually read the Lion air report?
Typical macho pilot reply. With 20 years experience in the industry on both sides, I fully agree with the OP. This is not nearly as cut & dried as some people might suggest. Easy to armchair quarterback when you've never been in an emergency scenario I guess.
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sportingrifle
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by sportingrifle »

Hi Boeingboy...

No I am not a Hollywood screenwriter, but I do have a bit of a background in aircraft certification flight testing.

Re: Quantas Flight 32 that you alluded to. The crew were very skilled at handling the multiple issues simultaneously, most of which they had received no training in. But they were also very lucky, and are the first to admit it. Part of the luck was that there were 5 pilots, including 2 check airman available to help solve the problems. Had the airplane been crewed with just 2, the outcome could have been much different. It is also worth noting that after the incident, all the RR powered A380's were grounded.

Cheers Sportingrifle
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boeingboy
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by boeingboy »

. With 20 years experience in the industry on both sides, I fully agree with the OP. This is not nearly as cut & dried as some people might suggest.
Huh - I guess my 20+ years dont count for much then - It is pretty cut and dry. I never siad there wasn't a problem that needed attention, just that it doesn't warrent a fleet wide grounding. I can think of many other deadly incidents that never resulted in a grounding.

Easy to armchair quarterback when you've never been in an emergency scenario I guess.
Must be a page taken from your own book. I'm one of the few here who's not armchaie quaterbacking - again this is you more than me. I ask again - have ever read the report? did you even look at the FDR data I posted?
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by boeingboy »

No I am not a Hollywood screenwriter, but I do have a bit of a background in aircraft certification flight testing.

Re: Quantas Flight 32 that you alluded to. The crew were very skilled at handling the multiple issues simultaneously, most of which they had received no training in. But they were also very lucky, and are the first to admit it. Part of the luck was that there were 5 pilots, including 2 check airman available to help solve the problems. Had the airplane been crewed with just 2, the outcome could have been much different. It is also worth noting that after the incident, all the RR powered A380's were grounded.
Good for you - must be very exciting work.

Your 100% right about Quantas - Good thing they did have 5 guys in the cockpit because they had something like 10 pages of ECAM warnings....but they got through it because they stayed calm and they followed procedures. These 2 guys had 3 or4 issues....all of which were known and all but the nose down trim were actioned before the the pitching happened....hell they even stopped it numerous times. The previous crew had exactly the same scenario, stayed calm and actioned the NNC before merrily going on their way.

Even if the Ethiopian accident shows the same problem - reports are already coming out that the pilot was panicked. As any instructor will tell you - staying calm in an emergency is vital to a successful outcome. 2 airplanes splashed - no matter the make - is certainly tragic......but if they are downed by pilot error, you cant really blame the machine for that.
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by jakeandelwood »

boeingboy wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:11 pm
No I am not a Hollywood screenwriter, but I do have a bit of a background in aircraft certification flight testing.

Re: Quantas Flight 32 that you alluded to. The crew were very skilled at handling the multiple issues simultaneously, most of which they had received no training in. But they were also very lucky, and are the first to admit it. Part of the luck was that there were 5 pilots, including 2 check airman available to help solve the problems. Had the airplane been crewed with just 2, the outcome could have been much different. It is also worth noting that after the incident, all the RR powered A380's were grounded.
Good for you - must be very exciting work.

Your 100% right about Quantas - Good thing they did have 5 guys in the cockpit because they had something like 10 pages of ECAM warnings....but they got through it because they stayed calm and they followed procedures. These 2 guys had 3 or4 issues....all of which were known and all but the nose down trim were actioned before the the pitching happened....hell they even stopped it numerous times. The previous crew had exactly the same scenario, stayed calm and actioned the NNC before merrily going on their way.

Even if the Ethiopian accident shows the same problem - reports are already coming out that the pilot was panicked. As any instructor will tell you - staying calm in an emergency is vital to a successful outcome. 2 airplanes splashed - no matter the make - is certainly tragic......but if they are downed by pilot error, you cant really blame the machine for that.
Well holy heck, to bad for all those poor passengers that the cool, calm, collective and un-panicked Boeing boy wasn't at the controls, he would have saved the day! But then again boeing (the company) is praying it was the "panicked" pilot and his unexperienced FO's fault, so their latest shiny new 737 spinoff won't get blamed.
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Eric Janson
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by Eric Janson »

Anyone here who has flown both 737NG and 737MAX?

I understand the "training" on the MAX is just a short powerpoint type presentation.

Apparently at some operators crews were just put on the aircraft with no additional training.

I'm just curious about just how different the 2 variants are.

Boeing doesn't have the common cockpit like airbus.
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by GARRETT »

boeingboy wrote: 2 airplanes splashed - no matter the make - is certainly tragic......but if they are downed by pilot error, you cant really blame the machine for that.
The Max has a known and acknowledged deadly flaw in the flight control system. Would you suggest that just operating this aircraft in a business as usual manner with the QRH open to the "Runaway Stabilizer" checklist before takeoff is a safer option than grounding? Would you be comfortable putting your family on a Max flight trusting that the crew will be "ready for it" when it happens again? I wouldn't.
Your awesome piloting skills should be reserved for unknown problems that arise, not known problems!
So yes, you can blame the machine.
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by youhavecontrol »

boeingboy wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:11 pm As any instructor will tell you - staying calm in an emergency is vital to a successful outcome. 2 airplanes splashed - no matter the make - is certainly tragic......but if they are downed by pilot error, you cant really blame the machine for that.
Aircraft are designed to eliminate pilot errors as much as possible, so when something like this happens twice, and both times it appears to be due to pilots being unable recover in the same manor, on the SAME type of aircraft, then other pilots come forward with accounts of similar problems... of course it's the machine's fault! An instructor will tell you that. Wait.. I'm an instructor telling you that.
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by complexintentions »

Your awesome piloting skills should be reserved for unknown problems that arise, not known problems!
Agreed for the unknown problems. Which leaves me trying to understand why one needs awesome piloting skills to deal with a known problem? I'm a fairly mediocre pilot but I can flip two guarded switches. Especially if I already have an inkling that there just may be trim control issues. Or maybe there is a B737 pilot alive today who hasn't heard the news? Of course, assuming this will even happen at all disregards the 45,000-odd cycles on the type without incident.

On second thought perhaps it IS best they grounded the whole fleet to cater to the lowest common denominator type of pilot mindset that seems to predominate these days.

Oh yeah, and sorry it that's too macho for the sensitive souls. :mrgreen:
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by av8ts »

Normally I would be the last person on this planet to post a link to a Fox “news” story and I don’t think Sully is a hero but I agree with what he’s saying


https://www.foxnews.com/us/hero-pilot-w ... ines-crash
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by Old fella »

Eric Janson wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:49 pm Anyone here who has flown both 737NG and 737MAX?

I understand the "training" on the MAX is just a short powerpoint type presentation.

Apparently at some operators crews were just put on the aircraft with no additional training.

I'm just curious about just how different the 2 variants are.

Boeing doesn't have the common cockpit like airbus.
Anything floating about on crew background(outside of media which can be inaccurate). It has been quiet far as I can tell. Probably not surprising due that Ethiopia is more or less an authoritative regime, state run airline and media and its state investigative process probably run by the military or much direct influence by them. Dare I suggest with accidents such as this it is more of a face saving issue with such countries as Ethiopia rather that really getting to the bottom to ensure this type of crash isn’t repeated. The Aviation Safety network data bank doesn’t really paint a rosy picture of EA since 1965. You know the neck of that woods so be interested in hearing your commentary. Certainly PM me if you rather.

Cheers.
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by Eric Janson »

I worked over on the other side of Africa sub-contracted to Arik Air.

This was the most dysfunctional Airline I've ever seen - a bush operation with jets!

What always struck me is how delusional their management was - they thought of their company as "The Emirates of Africa!"

One of the things I have seen in the Expat world is a big push to upgrade Locals - usually well beyond their capabilities.

I've seen everything from extremely capable people down to people who had no business in the cockpit of an aircraft. I've seen a number of people who could actually fly the aircraft fail their Command upgrade whilst others with very mediocre skills passed.

Don't know very much about Ethiopian or how much of the above is applicable.

The final report will give some clarity - this is such a high profile accident that there is no chance of anything being covered up imho.
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by ant_321 »

Eric Janson wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:49 pm Anyone here who has flown both 737NG and 737MAX?

I understand the "training" on the MAX is just a short powerpoint type presentation.

Apparently at some operators crews were just put on the aircraft with no additional training.

I'm just curious about just how different the 2 variants are.

Boeing doesn't have the common cockpit like airbus.
I fly both. I was just given a day of differences training in the classroom. If you take the whole MCAS thing out of the picture (it would have been nice to have been told about that) the differences training was more than adequate. From the cockpit there are very few differences. A few switches removed/added and some new tv screens. It’s not that different. Any 737 pilot is used to cockpit differences. I don’t think Boeing ever made 2 the same.
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Heliian
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by Heliian »

The biggest problem I see is that Boeing made a plane that can overpower the pilots. Certification should require that the pilots always have the final say. It's a double edge sword though as pilots have also made poor choices in hand flying ie. Colgan or af447.

The MAX must have some pretty nasty habits if they thought that there was such a high chance of stalling it to put the mcas in.
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by boeingboy »

The biggest problem I see is that Boeing made a plane that can overpower the pilots. Certification should require that the pilots always have the final say. It's a double edge sword though as pilots have also made poor choices in hand flying ie. Colgan or af447.
then other pilots come forward with accounts of similar problems
Part of the problem here is some of you still don't understand the system and the media is not helping any - grabbing on to any little snippet and twisting things around.


One of the reasons I like Boeing over airbus is the fact the pilot is able to override the computer - such as it will in this case. If one were to get into an actual stall condition and MCAS was operating to correct the problem...……. just as in Lion air - the pilot can trim nose up and override MCAS. The plane is simply going to say "hey - Im trying to save you but if you want to plow into the ground - go ahead" you can also stop it by flipping the cutout switches or selecting flaps. Of course - in this case this was a false problem on the computers part. Point is - one can override the flight software. If you look at the data - the lion air pilots were able to override and correct their altitude every time the system pitched them down. They were able to maintain 5000 fairly well through the 10 min they fought with it. I don't know about some of you but after 10 min at some point you would think common sense would kick in and someone would try running a checklist by that point.

The "other instances" are related to the autopilot. The MCAS is inhibited when the autopilot is engaged - so they are not even connected.
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by Illya Kuryakin »

Until something official comes out, I’m advising friends and family members to take another airplane.
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by complexintentions »

Don't know if you heard, but there was a small thing in the news about the type being grounded worldwide.

But hey, uhhh....great decision? :roll:
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by tsgas »

complexintentions wrote: Sat Mar 16, 2019 3:31 pm Don't know if you heard, but there was a small thing in the news about the type being grounded worldwide.

But hey, uhhh....great decision? :roll:
Sort of the along the lines of the old classic " locking the barn door , after all the horses have escaped" :rolleyes:
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by boeingboy »

I think he was just trying to inject a little calming humor to the discussion.

In other news....The CVR was successfully read out. It has been handed to the investigative team.
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