Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

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boeingboy
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by boeingboy »

Or you could lay off the weed for a week.
Really?

That's your response?? whatever. :roll:
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lownslow
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by lownslow »

GARRETT wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:47 am When I started on the NG/Max I was totally blown away by the fact we still had to manually select generators on after an engine start!
That seems an oddly specific thing to be upset about.
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BMLtech
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by BMLtech »

Another poster mentioned that if the stab becomes excessively out of trim nose down, the force required to hold back the column can become very high, depending on the speed etc. I'm curious if in this circumstance, is it still possible or plausible for the pilots to remove one hand from the yoke in order to manually re-trim the stabilizer with the knee basher handle? I imagine this would take many turns of the trim wheel?
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Last edited by BMLtech on Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
lostaviator
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by lostaviator »

Re: Sunwing

They kind of had to ground the fleet. Didn't most Caribbean countries not join the ban yesterday?
BMLtech wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:53 am Another poster mentioned that if the stab becomes excessively out of trim nose down, the force required to hold back the column can become very high, depending on the speed etc. I'm curious if in this circumstance, is it still possibly or plausible for the pilots to remove one hand from the yoke in order to manually re-trim the stabilizer with the knee basher handle? I imagine this would take many turns of the trim wheel?
Good question. I'd actually like to try that in the sim next month.
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GARRETT
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by GARRETT »

lownslow wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:39 am
GARRETT wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:47 am When I started on the NG/Max I was totally blown away by the fact we still had to manually select generators on after an engine start!
That seems an oddly specific thing to be upset about.
:lol: Ya... I'm not actually upset about it, I was just giving one example of the old school systems on a "modern" airliner. There's a lot of systems they should've updated a long time ago.
But you're right, that was an oddly specific item.
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FICU
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by FICU »

Some of us still like flipping switches. :P
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boeingboy
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by boeingboy »

Ottawa now grounding the Max in Canada
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Aux1
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by Aux1 »

Canada grounds Boeing 737 Max Aircraft

Canada Minister of Transport Marc Garneau just announced that as the result of new data that they received this morning, they will no longer allow Boeing 737 Max 8 or 9 aircraft to take off and land or fly over Canadian airspace.

https://www.cnn.com/world/live-news/boe ... 41d8c5bdf5
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rookiepilot
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by rookiepilot »

LIve on CBC NW.....
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DaviiB
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by DaviiB »

Jet Jockey wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:32 am
The MAX8 flew significantly enough different it was going to be a different type until MCAS was added to make it behave the same. This saved a ton of training and certification costs.

The problem is when in a problem situation and MCAS is disabled the pilots are for all intents and purposes now flying a type they have not been trained on.
Not to nitpick, but I think this is painting with a bit too wide of a brush. As I understand it:

- The (further) forward positioning of the engines on the MAX causes them to generate additional lift at higher AoA's when approaching stall.

- One of the certification requirements of this aircraft was that, as the aircraft approached a (clean) stall, the back pressure required to maintain a constant rate of AoA increase should not decrease. i.e. It should not get easier to raise the nose as you approach a stall. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong on this.

- The additional lift from the engine, at high AoA, was causing a pitch up moment, reducing the back pressure required to maintain a constant rate of AoA increase - hence failing that particular certification requirement. The 737-800 (NG) did not display this behaviour.

- MCAS was designed to nullify the effect of the extra lift at high AoA, by adding forward trim, causing the aircraft to behave like it's predecessor during an approach to stall.

- As I understand it, the MCAS does not augment the behaviour of the aircraft during any phase of flight other than a high AoA with flaps retracted and autopilot disengaged. (Approach to stall)

So, with the MCAS disabled, you will not notice any significantly different handling characteristics to the 737NG, unless you are in an approach-to-stall condition.

To say you are now flying a type you have not been trained on is probably a bit of a stretch w.r.t. disabling the MCAS system.
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karmutzen
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by karmutzen »

For an astronaut/engineer Garneau is a running dog-lackey to the sway of internet hysteria. He did not specify what "new information" he was processing with his engineer or astronaut "chapeau" on. Vertical profile? That was available from the start with Flight Radar. All my Max pilot buddies, including some training captains, don't have a concern flying it but emphasize that like any modern airliner you need to have a good understanding of the systems. And the Lion Air system issues with MCAS are now well known and reviewed in training, with thanks DaviiB for that explanation of this "bogeyman".

Copilot with 200 hrs? Was crew pairing done on a risk-assessed model? Things will go wrong with any machinery, the human interface is, or was, meant to mitigate the fact that every conceivable problem cannot be anticipated. The safety net of punching everything off and then systematically re-engaging after control is regained has now fallen out of favour because of the new religion that only full and complete automation can make an aircraft safer. Combined with pilot skill level that you wouldn't trust to hand fly, so just as well I suppose.

Like the large assortment of slightly different helmets in my closet for every leisure activity, this hypersensitivity to perceived or imagined risk is just a sign of the times. And the power of internet emotion and political interference has replaced the lengthy certification process, engineering analysis, and careful safety management systems.
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by tsgas »

karmutzen wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:35 am For an astronaut/engineer Garneau is a running dog-lackey to the sway of internet hysteria. He did not specify what "new information" he was processing with his engineer or astronaut "chapeau" on. Vertical profile? That was available from the start with Flight Radar. All my Max pilot buddies, including some training captains, don't have a concern flying it but emphasize that like any modern airliner you need to have a good understanding of the systems. And the Lion Air system issues with MCAS are now well known and reviewed in training, with thanks DaviiB for that explanation of this "bogeyman".

Copilot with 200 hrs? Was crew pairing done on a risk-assessed model? Things will go wrong with any machinery, the human interface is, or was, meant to mitigate the fact that every conceivable problem cannot be anticipated. The safety net of punching everything off and then systematically re-engaging after control is regained has now fallen out of favour because of the new religion that only full and complete automation can make an aircraft safer. Combined with pilot skill level that you wouldn't trust to hand fly, so just as well I suppose.

Like the large assortment of slightly different helmets in my closet for every leisure activity, this hypersensitivity to perceived or imagined risk is just a sign of the times. And the power of internet emotion and political interference has replaced the lengthy certification process, engineering analysis, and careful safety management systems.
Very well stated . It seems that man's superstitions and fears override science and technology . In the end , all politicians ever care about, is votes .
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P-40
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by P-40 »

tsgas wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:45 am
karmutzen wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:35 am For an astronaut/engineer Garneau is a running dog-lackey to the sway of internet hysteria. He did not specify what "new information" he was processing with his engineer or astronaut "chapeau" on. Vertical profile? That was available from the start with Flight Radar. All my Max pilot buddies, including some training captains, don't have a concern flying it but emphasize that like any modern airliner you need to have a good understanding of the systems. And the Lion Air system issues with MCAS are now well known and reviewed in training, with thanks DaviiB for that explanation of this "bogeyman".

Copilot with 200 hrs? Was crew pairing done on a risk-assessed model? Things will go wrong with any machinery, the human interface is, or was, meant to mitigate the fact that every conceivable problem cannot be anticipated. The safety net of punching everything off and then systematically re-engaging after control is regained has now fallen out of favour because of the new religion that only full and complete automation can make an aircraft safer. Combined with pilot skill level that you wouldn't trust to hand fly, so just as well I suppose.

Like the large assortment of slightly different helmets in my closet for every leisure activity, this hypersensitivity to perceived or imagined risk is just a sign of the times. And the power of internet emotion and political interference has replaced the lengthy certification process, engineering analysis, and careful safety management systems.
Very well stated . It seems that man's superstitions and fears override science and technology . In the end , all politicians ever care about, is votes .
Agreed - perfectly phrased karmutzen.
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A346Dude
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by A346Dude »

CYHQ PURSUANT TO SECTION 5.1 OF THE AERONAUTICS ACT, THE MINISTER OF TRANSPORT IS OF THE OPINION IT IS NECESSARY FOR THE PROTECTION OF AVIATION SAFETY AND THE PUBLIC TO PROHIBIT THE OPS OF BOEING 737-8 MAX AND 737-9 MAX ACFT IN CANADIAN AIRSPACE. B737-8 MAX OR B737-9 MAX ACFT ARE PROHIBITED FM OPR IN CANADIAN AIRSPACE EXC FOR FERRY FLIGHTS OR ACFT IN FLIGHT FOR THE DURATION OF THAT FLIGHT ENROUTE TO OR FM OR WITHIN CANADA AT THE TIME THIS NOTICE TAKES EFFECT.

That's a strange way to word a NOTAM. The Minister of Transport is of the opinion?
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by digits_ »

A346Dude wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:23 am CYHQ PURSUANT TO SECTION 5.1 OF THE AERONAUTICS ACT, THE MINISTER OF TRANSPORT IS OF THE OPINION IT IS NECESSARY FOR THE PROTECTION OF AVIATION SAFETY AND THE PUBLIC TO PROHIBIT THE OPS OF BOEING 737-8 MAX AND 737-9 MAX ACFT IN CANADIAN AIRSPACE. B737-8 MAX OR B737-9 MAX ACFT ARE PROHIBITED FM OPR IN CANADIAN AIRSPACE EXC FOR FERRY FLIGHTS OR ACFT IN FLIGHT FOR THE DURATION OF THAT FLIGHT ENROUTE TO OR FM OR WITHIN CANADA AT THE TIME THIS NOTICE TAKES EFFECT.

That's a strange way to word a NOTAM. The Minister of Transport is of the opinion?
That is a very Canadian notam. All that is missing is a sorry at the end.
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rookiepilot
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by rookiepilot »

US Expected To Order Grounding Of Boeing 737 Max Fleet – RTRS Sources

TRUMP SAYS FAA TO GROUND 737 MAX 8, MAX 9 PLANES
From Twitter.....
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Waldo Peppar
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by Waldo Peppar »

Trump on TV now announcing all Max 8 and 9s grounded immediately on landing at their destinations
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FlyGy
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by FlyGy »

What bugs me about all these groundings is that there isn't even a grace period. Any flights in the air now can complete the trip, but if one is scheduled to leave in an hour? Pax are screwed.

Air Canada had to cancel flights to the UK because it banned operations.

Why not a grace period. Release a statement that effective 0000 UTC March 15 the 737 Max is to be grounded. Give the airlines a chance to secure an alternative aircraft to fill the schedule rather than cancel flights.
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Heliian
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by Heliian »

FlyGy wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:46 am What bugs me about all these groundings is that there isn't even a grace period. Any flights in the air now can complete the trip, but if one is scheduled to leave in an hour? Pax are screwed.
Yes, that's what grounded means.
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frosti
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by frosti »

phillyfan wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:28 am I'm buying Boeing stock this morning. "Buy the Fear" They have orders for 5000 of these things. They are not going anywhere. Shares dropped 12% after the Lion Air crash and bounced back. This is an easy 12 to 15% moneymaker.
How did that stock workout for you? :lol:
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