Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

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Jet Jockey
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by Jet Jockey »

I don't know how accurate this is but I just found this article dated March 17th (today) from the Seattle Times, very interesting read...

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... air-crash/

Some of the highlights from the article from Boeing insiders and I quote...

Current and former engineers directly involved with the evaluations or familiar with the document shared details of Boeing’s “System Safety Analysis” of MCAS, which The Seattle Times confirmed.

The safety analysis:

•Understated the power of the new flight control system, which was designed to swivel the horizontal tail to push the nose of the plane down to avert a stall.

When the planes later entered service, MCAS was capable of moving the tail more than four times farther than was stated in the initial safety analysis document.

•Failed to account for how the system could reset itself each time a pilot responded, thereby missing the potential impact of the system repeatedly pushing the airplane’s nose downward.

•Assessed a failure of the system as one level below “catastrophic.” But even that “hazardous” danger level should have precluded activation of the system based on input from a single sensor — and yet that’s how it was designed.


The people who spoke to The Seattle Times and shared details of the safety analysis all spoke on condition of anonymity to protect their jobs at the FAA and other aviation organizations.
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goingnowherefast
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by goingnowherefast »

The same article mentions the single point failure for the AOA - MCAS system

...black box data retrieved after the Lion Air crash indicates that a single faulty sensor — a vane on the outside of the fuselage that measures the plane’s “angle of attack,” the angle between the airflow and the wing — triggered MCAS multiple times...
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by Jet Jockey »

goingnowherefast wrote: Sun Mar 17, 2019 7:37 am The same article mentions the single point failure for the AOA - MCAS system

...black box data retrieved after the Lion Air crash indicates that a single faulty sensor — a vane on the outside of the fuselage that measures the plane’s “angle of attack,” the angle between the airflow and the wing — triggered MCAS multiple times...
Yes I saw that and it is totally ridiculous that a single vane failure can bring an aircraft down.

Really poor design from Boeing and they will pay big time for their cost cutting on the MAX.
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by Victory »

Reminds me of that bridge that started oscillating and broke apart in terms of absolute engineering failures. Step back from the drafting table or computer and think about the real world for once. You cost people their lives and hope you answer for that.
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by J31 »

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ethiopia- ... -1.5059971

Preliminary data retrieved from the flight data recorder of the Ethiopian Airlines plane that crashed shows "a clear similarity" with an earlier disaster in Indonesia, Ethiopia's transport minister said Sunday.

Dagmawit Moges told reporters that the Ethiopian government intends to release detailed findings within one month.

"The black box has been found in a good condition that enabled us to extract almost all the data inside," she told reporters Sunday evening.
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by Eric Janson »

Serious issues with the MAX that weren't caught in the certification process which also appears to be a complete joke with the FAA allowing Boeing to do a lot of it themselves.

A lot of people at Boeing and the FAA need to be fired and possibly prosecuted for Criminal Negligence.

I think we're well past a simple 'Software Fix' at this point - the entire certification is in jeopardy.

I'm sure some of you are wondering 'What went wrong at Boeing?'

The answer is right on the Boeing website - they're so self unaware that they can't see the problem....

http://www.boeing.com/principles/divers ... ve-for-all

Be sure to watch both videos.

Replacing qualified people with 'Diversity', 'Equality' (of outcome) and Virtue Signalling. What could possibly go wrong? :roll: :roll:

There is no place for this PC garbage in Aviation imho.
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LittleNelly
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by LittleNelly »

Jet Jockey wrote: Sun Mar 17, 2019 10:05 am
goingnowherefast wrote: Sun Mar 17, 2019 7:37 am The same article mentions the single point failure for the AOA - MCAS system

...black box data retrieved after the Lion Air crash indicates that a single faulty sensor — a vane on the outside of the fuselage that measures the plane’s “angle of attack,” the angle between the airflow and the wing — triggered MCAS multiple times...
Yes I saw that and it is totally ridiculous that a single vane failure can bring an aircraft down.

Really poor design from Boeing and they will pay big time for their cost cutting on the MAX.

A single vane failure did not bring down an aircraft.

The sensor was faulty, the plane thought it was approaching stall(as any plane would, not just the 737), then it’s up to the crew to do their job and determine if in fact they are about to stall(as with any crew on any aircraft type), the previous Lion air crews did this correctly, took manual control and noticed that whenever they stopped manual trip input that it would trim back down, so runaway trim drill, they disconnected the trim, returned to land without incident. Wrote it up.

The cause was improper maintenance in regards to the sensor(Lion air was sanctioned for poor maintence practices, and the tech director was fired), and pilot error in not identifying the AOA disagree.

The MCAS was not a cause, merely a symptom of the problem. The plane thought it was stalling so the MCAS did what it was designed to do, as was approved by every aviation authority In the world, and begin trimming down. It’s up to the pilots to determine if they do stall recovery if it’s in fact a stall or override if it’s not a stall as was the case. This is the same procedure for any airliner in production.

The fact is the MCAS cannot override the pilot. Electronic, manual, or disconnect overrides it. As was shown with the successful return of the previous lion air flight before the crash. The Boeing response to Lion air(as was accepted) by once again every authority around the world) was to tell operators to make sure they include AOA disagree in procedures(that’s on the airlines and the regulators to ensure proper training and procedures) and more importantly stress the importance of Stabilizer Runaway non-normal checklist. basically Boeing had to tell airlines make sure your crews do their job!

If nothing else going back to basic airmanship and disconnecting the stab trim during a trim runaway situation would have saved the flight.

Fly the plane, don’t let the plane fly you.


So in fact if the Ethiopian flight is “similar” to the Lion air then it is good news for Boeing since no fault has thus far been found with the 737 design. This is based on the actual reports which have been drowned out by sensationalist media like the national post which uses random internet bloggers and anonymous posters on web forums to write articles to scare the public off murderous computers on planes taking control.
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by sstaurus »

LittleNelly wrote: Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:27 am
A single vane failure did not bring down an aircraft.

Yes but obviously it was a big hole in the swiss cheese that shouldn't have been there.
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Last edited by sstaurus on Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by LittleNelly »

Eric Janson wrote: Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:07 am Serious issues with the MAX that weren't caught in the certification process which also appears to be a complete joke with the FAA allowing Boeing to do a lot of it themselves.

A lot of people at Boeing and the FAA need to be fired and possibly prosecuted for Criminal Negligence.

I think we're well past a simple 'Software Fix' at this point - the entire certification is in jeopardy.

I'm sure some of you are wondering 'What went wrong at Boeing?'

The answer is right on the Boeing website - they're so self unaware that they can't see the problem....

http://www.boeing.com/principles/divers ... ve-for-all

Be sure to watch both videos.

Replacing qualified people with 'Diversity', 'Equality' (of outcome) and Virtue Signalling. What could possibly go wrong? :roll: :roll:

There is no place for this PC garbage in Aviation imho.
What negligence?

No fault has thus far been found in the 737 design in the Lion air crash. The stall protection system including MCAS did EXACTLY what it was designed to do when it detected a stall from the faulty AOA. It’s up to the crew to determine if it’s an actual stall, if not then take action to remedy the situation(which the previous Lion air crews did).
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by LittleNelly »

sstaurus wrote: Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:32 am
LittleNelly wrote: Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:27 am
A single vane failure did not bring down an aircraft.

Yes but obviously it was a big hole in the swiss cheese that shouldn't have been there.
As was the frozen sensor on AF 447...... I think we can agree that crash was on the crew.

Pilots get paid to deal with emergencies not babysit an FMS.

But even then the AOA vane was on Lion air maintence as per the investigation. Not Boeing.
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by '97 Tercel »

poor Boeing
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by Ki-ll »

Eric Janson wrote: Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:07 am Serious issues with the MAX that weren't caught in the certification process which also appears to be a complete joke with the FAA allowing Boeing to do a lot of it themselves.
This has been the norm for decades, at least since the 70s. FAA, or any other regulator, has neither manpower nor the expertise to wholly certify an airliner.
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by Gino Under »

As I’m understanding it, a STAB TRIM RUNAWAY is not the same as an MCAS activation.
Anyone else reading the same info from the numerous reports coming up with the same conclusion?
Boeing is going to take a $$bath$$ for rushing this aircraft to market.

https://www.adn.com/nation-world/2019/0 ... ol-system/

Gino Under
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by Flying Low »

The only difference between a Stab Trim Runaway and the MCAS situation is that the pilot can intervene with the electric trim and stop it momentarily.

Would you keep trying to fly with an autopilot that wasn't doing what you wanted or use an auto throttle system that wasn't giving you the results you were looking for? I sincerely hope the answer is a NO!

The Lion Air crew flew around with a malfunctioning trim for the better part of ten minutes before completely losing control of the aircraft and never thought to turn the electric trim off?

My biggest question about this isn't about Boeing's design of the MCAS but the training of a crew that would continue to use a malfunctioning system for 10 minutes.
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by tsgas »

Flying Low wrote: Sun Mar 17, 2019 3:41 pm The only difference between a Stab Trim Runaway and the MCAS situation is that the pilot can intervene with the electric trim and stop it momentarily.

Would you keep trying to fly with an autopilot that wasn't doing what you wanted or use an auto throttle system that wasn't giving you the results you were looking for? I sincerely hope the answer is a NO!

The Lion Air crew flew around with a malfunctioning trim for the better part of ten minutes before completely losing control of the aircraft and never thought to turn the electric trim off?

My biggest question about this isn't about Boeing's design of the MCAS but the training of a crew that would continue to use a malfunctioning system for 10 minutes.
Sort of like the Sunwing crew in Belfast that let the plane fly itself , without manually adding any extra throttle. :cry:
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by LittleNelly »

Gino Under wrote: Sun Mar 17, 2019 3:27 pm As I’m understanding it, a STAB TRIM RUNAWAY is not the same as an MCAS activation.
Anyone else reading the same info from the numerous reports coming up with the same conclusion?
Boeing is going to take a $$bath$$ for rushing this aircraft to market.

Gino Under

Read the actual Lion Air report as this is the crash everyone seems to be basing everything off on. No fault to Boeing or the 737 reported in the Initial report.

STAB TRIM RUNAWAY is not a specific procedure. It covers ALL instances that might cause the stab trim to not function properly, ie it’s not doing as commanded. For instance the MCAS commands nose down trim if it detects a stall. If you’re not stalling and you don’t want the down trim the stall protection is commanding you follow your SOPs of carrying out The STAB TRIM RUNAWAY emergency checklist.

If you see the trim keep reverting to nose down after you move it up, what do would you do?
Start pondering the aeronautical engineering of the systems of your aircraft or carry out your emergency drill?
It’s not our job to determine the cause of a system failure, it’s to fly the plane safely, Follow SOP, do the emergency drill, land safely, file a report, and let maintenance determine the cause.

So yes unwanted MCAS commanded trim during a false stall indication is in FACT stab trim runaway.

Seriously, this whole thing was already dealt with. They found no fault in the 737Max with the Lion air initial report. 0. Boeings share of the fix was to tell airlines to remind crews to follow STAB trim runway checklist if the stab trim, well runsaway, as is the case during a false stall indication. It’s not rocket science.

This is all based on the Official reports. So what numerous reports are you referring to?
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by Gino Under »

So, it seems some readers actually see the differences between two very different events. One, clearly a steady in put, easily dealt with while the other one, NOT so easily dealt with.
If investigators haven’t given us a conclusive finding yet for 2 apparent MCAS induced accidents, then my opinion is worthless. So are the opinions of numerous B737 pilots who ‘think’ THEY know the answer.

LittleNelly, are you really that confident in your statement regarding the Lion Air investigation? I’d pump the brakes on that if I were you.
Boeing is going to get skinned over this.
For starters. Have a read through this…
https://www.adn.com/nation-world/2019/0 ... ol-system/

If you like, I can send you a copy of the FAA AD that was issued within days of Lion Air accident. Based on the content of that AD, I’d have to disagree with your comments with respect to Boeing.

I don’t put much stock in paying too much attention to Standard operating procedures when I find myself in a situation that is anything other than STANDARD. Most reputable flight operations tell their aircrew SOPs can’t address every imaginable situation. It’s up to the crew to figure that out.
I suggest CRM and TEM is a better fit. Read the report on that United DC-10 at Sioux City back in the mid 80s or more recently, the Qantas A380 incident. Strict adherence to SOPs didn’t get those aircraft back on the ground, I can assure you.

Gino
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by Eric Janson »

Gino Under wrote: Sun Mar 17, 2019 3:27 pm As I’m understanding it, a STAB TRIM RUNAWAY is not the same as an MCAS activation.
Anyone else reading the same info from the numerous reports coming up with the same conclusion?
Boeing is going to take a $$bath$$ for rushing this aircraft to market.

https://www.adn.com/nation-world/2019/0 ... ol-system/

Gino Under
I agree with you but some people hold a different view.

The aircraft is grounded for a reason - some people think this is an over-reaction.

A good article - pay attention to the bold text. This is why the certification is in jeopardy imho.

https://www.moonofalabama.org/2019/03/f ... .html#more
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by ogc »

On one hand I see this is as basically a metro 2 with the rosemount system.

Single AOA attached to a stick pusher.

I think every metro pilot is well versed in the drill SAS clutch off.

On the other hand I see how crews weren't aware, Boeing didnt tell anyone really till after Lion Air.
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by LittleNelly »

Gino Under wrote: Sun Mar 17, 2019 4:57 pm
LittleNelly, are you really that confident in your statement regarding the Lion Air investigation? I’d pump the brakes on that if I were you.
Boeing is going to get skinned over this.
For starters. Have a read through this…
https://www.adn.com/nation-world/2019/0 ... ol-system/

If you like, I can send you a copy of the FAA AD that was issued within days of Lion Air accident. Based on the content of that AD, I’d have to disagree with your comments with respect to Boeing.


Gino
The anchorage daily news eh, because we all know the news never misreports or senstationalozes aviation stories.
Anyway you can check out my sources
The actual report from the official investigation https://reports.aviation-safety.net/201 ... MINARY.pdf
Or the avherald has a summary of it if you don’t feel like reading the whole report
http://avherald.com/h?article=4bf90724/0009&opt=0

See if you can find them blaming the 737..

No need to send me the AD, here it is
http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guida ... ection.pdf

Basically the remedy is emphasizing that uncommanded horizontal stabilizer movement=RUNAWAY STABILIZER

So this is a serious question.. in your opinion, in an event where the stab trim has uncommanded nose down movement, it is not the pilots fault for not actioning the runaway stab trim drill?

So yes following SOPs and emergency checklists would have brought the plane safely home.. because they did that exact thing the night before! Then Lion air cut corners and sent out an ‘unairworthy aircraft’(according to the Indonesian investigators) the next day ending in the crash.
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