Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

[telex]

[tsgas]

We don't know what happened yet, but it seems there was a control problem.
Putting the MCAS system in and not putting it in the Flight Manual is ridiculous! Why?
Runaway MCAS should be trained for; repeatedly; can't do that if it is not in the Manual.
Hopefully if there is any indication of MCAS problems in the earliest results from the Flight/Voice Recorders the MAX will be grounded.

Remember that earlier 737's had an issue with rogue rudder actuators going hard over. Boeing denied all the evidence.
Several accidents and incidents were blamed on pilots until one crew managed to land an airplane with the malfunction and Boeing was exposed; forced to re-design the part.
Boeing claimed one of the accidents was a pilot committing suicide when the airplane rolled over and flew into the ground.

Boeing 747 engine mount "Fuse Pins" failed and caused a couple of fatals. Had to be re-designed.

Three 707's had the horizontal stabiliser snap off when landing flap was selected with bad results.

Regarding low time co-pilots. Hopefully that had nothing to do with it.
At one time, AC had lots of just over 250 hour pilots; there were several on my course. There was no problem.
Those pilots were mentored by experienced Captains.
I had the odd F/O with lots of time who was not good on a good day; hours were not the issue.
Lufthansa F/O's go on the line with 250 hours; that hasn't been a problem.
Grads from Sault, Seneca and the like are better trained than many of the low time F/O's that were on the line before those programs started.
Sometimes a higher time pilot has bad habits or attitudes that are a detriment.

The FAA in the USA ,upped the minimum experience level to 1500 hrs based on it's concerns for flight safety.

[digits_]

Thanks for the picture.

Speculation, but I have a feeling that this would be exactly what happened, and Boeing will try to blame the crew for not pressing that switch quickly enough.

Any idea what the flap retraction altitude is at Ethiopian Airlines?
And the Lion air one?

[ant_321]

Thanks for the picture.

Speculation, but I have a feeling that this would be exactly what happened, and Boeing will try to blame the crew for not pressing that switch quickly enough.

Any idea what the flap retraction altitude is at Ethiopian Airlines?
And the Lion air one?

Most airlines use 800’ or 1000’. I’m not sure what they use.

[tbaylx]

Wow...pretty cold. How about you don't talk about your awesome business prowess here on this site?

Nothing cold or prowess related about buying into a long term investment. Because they happened to be the manufacturer of the aircraft that crashed has nothing to do with investing in them.

Let me put it more simple terms there Tbay...this isn't the place for your investment tips...and yes, to tell us all how smart you think you are by posting your stock buying idea on an accident thread is purely chilling. Take it outside buddy, it doesn't belong here.

Yup that's what I was doing, not replying to another post on the same subject. Chilling, simply callous and chilling.

[tbaylx]

Lets assume worst case scenario and its a faulty AOA sensor and a mishandled MCAS response. Emergency AD issued changing the FCC software and removing the MCAS trim inputs and the fleet is flying again. Long term it gets fixed with software or addition of a third AOA sensor. The aircraft will continue to be bought and put into service, same as the 787 after the battery issues got fixed.

MCAS was used to certify the flight envelope limitations on the MAX. You don't just "turn it off" and carry on as if nothing happened. Any changes to the system would require re-certification prior to release to the industry.

Not true, it just has to be approved. You don't have to re certify the entire aircraft. Same as when they redid the rudder PCU didn't require a complete re certification.

[Capt. Underpants]

MCAS was used to certify the flight envelope limitations on the MAX. You don't just "turn it off" and carry on as if nothing happened. Any changes to the system would require re-certification prior to release to the industry.

Not true, it just has to be approved. You don't have to re certify the entire aircraft. Same as when they redid the rudder PCU didn't require a complete re certification.

Partly. No, the whole flight test program wouldn't need to be redone. However, given the flight envelope implications and two fatal accidents in short succession, I'd bet the farm that FAA would require all MCAS-related certification flight tests to be redone.

[Meatservo]

Is there any evidence this MCAS thing was responsible for either accident? It sounds pretty easy to deal with.

[telex]

Is there any evidence this MCAS thing was responsible for either accident? It sounds pretty easy to deal with.

From another forum.

“And Boeing have still not explained the logic of of a pseudo-stick-push that keeps operating again and again and again, until you get full forward trim. Have you tried this MCAS-trim-runaway in the sim? According to the sim, the aircraft is only just about controllable with two gorillas hauling back in unison, with both feet up on the foot-bar and hauling about 40 kg pressure on each stick. And that was in level flight with the CofG in the central position. Ok, now try a recovery from a stall-dive, with a forward CofG, with 20º nose down pitch, and with the speed rapidly increasing to 250 kt. It is absolutely impossible - you are doomed. And doomed by an anti-stall system that is supposed to save you. But who in the world would want to recover from a stall, with the trim-stabiliser set fully forward? Who thought that ine up? The stabiliser is more powerful than the elevator, and will take you straight down to terra-firma. Heck, even the Wright Brothers knew not to design something like that.”

[tbaylx]

Is there any evidence this MCAS thing was responsible for either accident? It sounds pretty easy to deal with.

It certainly was a factor in the Lion Air, pure speculation with Ethiopian as no data recorder info has been released yet.

Either way you're correct though, it's a runaway stab regardless of what the root cause of the runaway is, the actions are the same.

[digits_]

Is there any evidence this MCAS thing was responsible for either accident? It sounds pretty easy to deal with.

It certainly was a factor in the Lion Air, pure speculation with Ethiopian as no data recorder info has been released yet.

Either way you're correct though, it's a runaway stab regardless of what the root cause of the runaway is, the actions are the same.

How many seconds would you have to identify the issue and perform those actions if they happen at 1000 AGL?

[Heliian]

https://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/business/ ... -1.4330994

Boeing makes a great product and I've flown on many types but until they get some more info, I would err on the side of caution and not fly it. Let's have garneau put his money where his mouth is.

Most of Indonesia and China has stopped at this time, as well as a couple others.

[BMLtech]

Why would the MAX not have the stab trim brake feature of earlier Boeings, that braked the stab trim as soon as the control column was moved in the opposite direction to trimming?? Also Does the MAX have a warning for stab out of trim condition?

[Donald]

https://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/business/ ... -1.4330994

Boeing makes a great product and I've flown on many types but until they get some more info, I would err on the side of caution and not fly it. Let's have garneau put his money where his mouth is.

Most of Indonesia and China has stopped at this time, as well as a couple others.

China has most likely made this move as an F-U to the USA.

As for why Canada hasn’t suspended MAX ops, why shouldn’t we follow the advice of Boeing/NTSB?

As for the safety record of Ethiopian Airlines:

As of March 2019, the Aviation Safety Network records 64 accidents/incidents for Ethiopian Airlines that total 459 fatalities since 1965,[1] plus six accidents for Ethiopian Air Lines, the airline’s former name.[2] Since July 1948, the company wrote off 36 aircraft, including three Boeing 707s, three Boeing 737s, one Boeing 767, two Douglas DC-3s, two Douglas DC-6, one de Havilland Canada DHC-5 Buffalo, two de Havilland Canada DHC-6 Twin Otters, 21 subtypes of the Douglas C-47, one Lockheed L-749 Constellation and one Lockheed L-100 Hercules.

[mbav8r]

Nothing cold or prowess related about buying into a long term investment. Because they happened to be the manufacturer of the aircraft that crashed has nothing to do with investing in them.

Let me put it more simple terms there Tbay...this isn't the place for your investment tips...and yes, to tell us all how smart you think you are by posting your stock buying idea on an accident thread is purely chilling. Take it outside buddy, it doesn't belong here.

Yup that's what I was doing, not replying to another post on the same subject. Chilling, simply callous and chilling.

“A sociopath is a term used to describe someone who has antisocial personality disorder (ASPD). People with ASPD can't understand others' feelings. They'll often break rules or make impulsive decisions without feeling guilty for the harm they cause”

[tbaylx]

Let me put it more simple terms there Tbay...this isn't the place for your investment tips...and yes, to tell us all how smart you think you are by posting your stock buying idea on an accident thread is purely chilling. Take it outside buddy, it doesn't belong here.

Yup that's what I was doing, not replying to another post on the same subject. Chilling, simply callous and chilling.

“A sociopath is a term used to describe someone who has antisocial personality disorder (ASPD). People with ASPD can't understand others' feelings. They'll often break rules or make impulsive decisions without feeling guilty for the harm they cause”

That pretty much describes you over the last few months. Seek help.

[tps8903]

Is there any evidence this MCAS thing was responsible for either accident? It sounds pretty easy to deal with.

It certainly was a factor in the Lion Air, pure speculation with Ethiopian as no data recorder info has been released yet.

Either way you're correct though, it's a runaway stab regardless of what the root cause of the runaway is, the actions are the same.

How many seconds would you have to identify the issue and perform those actions if they happen at 1000 AGL?

I saw a caption on a news website of the plane's VS. It was erratic but I also noticed they fought the plane for about 3 minutes in the data shown. Is there any indications the MCAS has activated? Or is aggressive pitch down the only indication?

[mbav8r]

Yup that's what I was doing, not replying to another post on the same subject. Chilling, simply callous and chilling.

“A sociopath is a term used to describe someone who has antisocial personality disorder (ASPD). People with ASPD can't understand others' feelings. They'll often break rules or make impulsive decisions without feeling guilty for the harm they cause”

That pretty much describes you over the last few months. Seek help.

I’m positive that if the two of us were to be analyzed by a psychiatrist, one of us would be considered a sociopath, I’m also positive it wouldn’t be me but you keep deflecting, seems to work for you.

[plhought]

Why would the MAX not have the stab trim brake feature of earlier Boeings, that braked the stab trim as soon as the control column was moved in the opposite direction to trimming?? Also Does the MAX have a warning for stab out of trim condition?

The 737 Max and NG have control column trim cut-out switches. Trimming nose down and pull back? Electric trim will stop.

Once you relax the controls though the trimming (either person or FCC commanded) will begin again.

[BTD]

Why would the MAX not have the stab trim brake feature of earlier Boeings, that braked the stab trim as soon as the control column was moved in the opposite direction to trimming?? Also Does the MAX have a warning for stab out of trim condition?

There is an interrupt if the column is pulled in the opposite direction. Apparently it doesn’t function under these circumstances. There is a light for stab out of trim. With the flaps retracted the trim moves relatively slowly.

[quote=Meatservo post_id=<a href="tel:1071645">1071645</a> time=<a href="tel:1552338459">1552338459</a> user_id=3757]
Is there any evidence this MCAS thing was responsible for either accident? It sounds pretty easy to deal with.

From another forum.

“And Boeing have still not explained the logic of of a pseudo-stick-push that keeps operating again and again and again, until you get full forward trim. Have you tried this MCAS-trim-runaway in the sim? According to the sim, the aircraft is only just about controllable with two gorillas hauling back in unison, with both feet up on the foot-bar and hauling about 40 kg pressure on each stick. And that was in level flight with the CofG in the central position. Ok, now try a recovery from a stall-dive, with a forward CofG, with 20º nose down pitch, and with the speed rapidly increasing to 250 kt. It is absolutely impossible - you are doomed. And doomed by an anti-stall system that is supposed to save you. But who in the world would want to recover from a stall, with the trim-stabiliser set fully forward? Who thought that ine up? The stabiliser is more powerful than the elevator, and will take you straight down to terra-firma. Heck, even the Wright Brothers knew not to design something like that.”
[/quote]

Hopefully you recognize the problem before full nose down trim and select the cutout switch’s off as per the memory item. Then take the handle out of the wheel and trim it back manually.