Small plane crash near Kenora.

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corethatthermal
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Re: Small plane crash near Kenora.

Post by corethatthermal »

I do not appreciate it when a customer flies in and expects the annual to be started immediately,,,,, A pre annual run-up needs to be done by the AME doing the annual PERIOD !
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corethatthermal
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Re: Small plane crash near Kenora.

Post by corethatthermal »

Trust, but verify is a motto I live by. I will continue to closely supervise certain maintenance aspects, if an AME doesn't like it, rest assured I will be finding a different AME.
Does a passenger or a passenger who is a private pilot ask to be seated on the jumpseat of an airbus or boeing so he/she can closely supervise the pilots doing an approach so the passenger can be assured the approach and landing will be done safely?

If a customer comes back to an AME for 10 yrs and there is no error on the part of the AME ever then a relationship of trust is built.

I fully understand the issues WRT the many AMO s who have poor AME s and fresh apprentices working on GA A/C that are not their bread and butter and guess what? very high bills $ occur, poor communication is the norm, delays are standard and the possibility of errors leading to safety concerns are not rare !!!
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PilotDAR
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Re: Small plane crash near Kenora.

Post by PilotDAR »

A pre annual run-up needs to be done by the AME doing the annual PERIOD !
Well, to drift this thread a little more, not only should a pre inspection run up be done, but the flight control travels should all be checked. Too often I have check flown an airplane and found defects, where I believe that the plane came in with the defect, and the AME did not think to actually check something which seemed to work.

My scariest flying has been maintenance check flying. That's not a slight against AMEs, but I have many recollections of returning an aircraft with a defect which could have been detected before I flew it. A number of times, I have found seatbelts reinstalled such that they could not be done up. I eventually told the staff of one AMO I was associated with, that they were to get in and buckle up, before I got in to the plane.

It is very wise for owners to satisfy themselves as to the compliance of work accomplished.
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rookiepilot
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Re: Small plane crash near Kenora.

Post by rookiepilot »

corethatthermal wrote: Sat Aug 17, 2019 8:02 pm
Trust, but verify is a motto I live by. I will continue to closely supervise certain maintenance aspects, if an AME doesn't like it, rest assured I will be finding a different AME.
Does a passenger or a passenger who is a private pilot ask to be seated on the jumpseat of an airbus or boeing so he/she can closely supervise the pilots doing an approach so the passenger can be assured the approach and landing will be done safely?
I would hope I knew my own plane a little better than I know anything about an Airbus.

Supervision isn't standing behind with a wrench, working with an AME in a trust relationship as you say ....it still means being fully aware of everything going on, asking questions during an annual, and maybe shining my own flashlight around a bit into different compartments as the work progresses. I've met many other responsible owners with the same approach.
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corethatthermal
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Re: Small plane crash near Kenora.

Post by corethatthermal »

Supervision works in an AMO when an AME is supervising an apprentice or when 2 AME s are working on a plane, either way, 1 is overseeing the work and the other is usually being delegated the work. It would be unusual for an apprentice to oversee an AME and that is basically what you are saying. An owner is basically an apprentice when it comes to working on the systems of a plane.
In an AMO, An AME will teach an apprentice how to do a job and then look at the finished job or let an apprentice do a full job and inspect it when its finished.
Being a 1 person shop, I have had to utilize the A/C owner to do the dual insp. for flt/engine controls and it is NOT an effective way of doing things. An equivalent of better AME etc should check another persons work.
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PilotDAR
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Re: Small plane crash near Kenora.

Post by PilotDAR »

An owner is basically an apprentice when it comes to working on the systems of a plane.
Maybe, maybe not. I've known some very knowledgeable owners. 'Probably best if the owner and the AME reach an understanding they're both happy with, and go from there....
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photofly
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Re: Small plane crash near Kenora.

Post by photofly »

corethatthermal wrote: Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:57 am Being a 1 person shop, I have had to utilize the A/C owner to do the dual insp. for flt/engine controls and it is NOT an effective way of doing things.
Knowing that you like to do things correctly, I hope they were appropriately trained on a prior occasion, and that you checked their records, before permitting this:
https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/ ... 10-557.htm
Where no AMO is involved, the AME signing the maintenance release must directly assess the qualifications of the person performing the independent check. In making an assessment of these qualifications, the AME must take into account the individual's training and experience. Completion of a Transport Canada approved course in aircraft maintenance, followed by documented proof (such as entries in an AME logbook) of satisfactory participation in similar control work would be acceptable. In the case of a pilot, an entry in the pilot's logbook by an AME, attesting that the pilot had satisfactorily completed similar control inspections under supervision, would also suffice. The AME may also consider other forms of proof that provide an equivalent level of assurance. These qualifications must, however, be assessed and accepted before the work in question takes place. It is not satisfactory for the AME signing the release to show the person performing the independent check how to perform the inspection at the time the work is completed. Such a procedure would not provide sufficient confidence that the person performing the independent check was capable of independently detecting errors overlooked by the AME.
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corethatthermal
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Re: Small plane crash near Kenora.

Post by corethatthermal »

In the case of a pilot, an entry in the pilot's logbook by an AME, attesting that the pilot had satisfactorily completed similar control inspections under supervision, would also suffice. The AME may also consider other forms of proof that provide an equivalent level of assurance. These qualifications must, however, be assessed and accepted before the work in question takes place. It is not satisfactory for the AME signing the release to show the person performing the independent check how to perform the inspection at the time the work is completed. Such a procedure would not provide sufficient confidence that the person performing the independent check was capable of independently detecting errors overlooked by the AME.
Whether it is a pilot or AME., the person MUST be able to go through the whole procedure of rigging and look at everything involved in the flight/engine control work as if they were doing the work themselves!
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jakeandelwood
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Re: Small plane crash near Kenora.

Post by jakeandelwood »

If you are paying a so called reputable shop to preform your annual (not some guy on the side out of a back of a pickup) and your paying a substantial amount of money and your bill says they did an AD search you shouldn't have to do the search yourself again. The last shop that did my annual in which I will never go back charged me well over 100 hours, there was some other stuff but none of it was split up on the bill so I have no idea where that labour went. I guess I shouldn't have trusted them to do a thorough AD search when they left some of my cowl fasteners loose, lost my wheel chocks, lost my pitot cover and left my neatly coiled and tied engine heater cord hanging out my cowl flap wrapped around the exhaust pipe, idiots.
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Last edited by jakeandelwood on Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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rookiepilot
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Re: Small plane crash near Kenora.

Post by rookiepilot »

jakeandelwood wrote: Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:06 am If you are paying a so called reputable shop to preform your annual (not some guy on the side out of a back of a pickup) and your paying a substantial amount of money and your bill says they did an AD search you shouldn't have to do the search yourself again. The last shop that did my annual in which I will never go back charged me well over 100 hours, there was some other stuff but none of it was split up on the bill so I have no idea where that labour went. I guess I shouldn't have trusted them to do a thorough AD search when they left some of my cowl fasteners loose, lost my wheel chocks, lost my pilot cover and left my neatly coiled and tied engine heater cord hanging out my cowl flap wrapped around the exhaust pipe, idiots.
Some people simply don't give a rip, whether they be AMEs, pilots or controllers. Aviation doesn't change people's character them came in with.

This is why I "trust but verify" -- which seems to get some people's nose out of joint for some strange reason, that I don't blindly trust people. Tough, I say. Take it or leave it.

You should publicly out an AME like that, by the way. If your report is inaccurate it won't affect them one bit.
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jakeandelwood
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Re: Small plane crash near Kenora.

Post by jakeandelwood »

rookiepilot wrote: Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:49 pm
jakeandelwood wrote: Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:06 am If you are paying a so called reputable shop to preform your annual (not some guy on the side out of a back of a pickup) and your paying a substantial amount of money and your bill says they did an AD search you shouldn't have to do the search yourself again. The last shop that did my annual in which I will never go back charged me well over 100 hours, there was some other stuff but none of it was split up on the bill so I have no idea where that labour went. I guess I shouldn't have trusted them to do a thorough AD search when they left some of my cowl fasteners loose, lost my wheel chocks, lost my pilot cover and left my neatly coiled and tied engine heater cord hanging out my cowl flap wrapped around the exhaust pipe, idiots.
Some people simply don't give a rip, whether they be AMEs, pilots or controllers. Aviation doesn't change people's character them came in with.

This is why I "trust but verify" -- which seems to get some people's nose out of joint for some strange reason, that I don't blindly trust people. Tough, I say. Take it or leave it.

You should publicly out an AME like that, by the way. If your report is inaccurate it won't affect them one bit.
Yes, "trust but verify" is a good way to go about it, some people get very offended when you double check their work.
As for the AME, they already have a bit of a bad name for charging top dollar for mediocre work, unfortunately I was stuck at the time and had to use them, I was warned but hoped for better I guess.
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BMLtech
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Re: Small plane crash near Kenora.

Post by BMLtech »

This thread has drifted way off topic. The subject aircraft in this accident did not have any record of the lift strut AD being complied with, and 2 fine people lost their lives as a result.And the methodology of determining the serviceability of the lift strut has also been brought into question by the TSB. A harsh lesson for all you private owners out there.
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J31
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Re: Small plane crash near Kenora.

Post by J31 »

On 30 March 2019, a privately registered, ski-equipped Piper J3C-65 aircraft (registration C-FLDQ, serial number 16839) was en route from Pistol Lake, Ontario, to Snowshoe Lake, Ontario (approximately 53 nautical miles northwest of Kenora, Ontario), with the pilot and 1 passenger on board. The intent of the flight was to transport the passenger to a hunting and fishing outpost lodge to complete some renovations. The passenger was an employee of the pilot, who was also the owner of the aircraft and the lodge.

On arrival at Snowshoe Lake, the pilot conducted a low pass from a north- northwest direction, adjacent to the outpost lodge, to advise lodge guests of their arrival. During the pass, control of the aircraft was lost and the aircraft struck the frozen lake surface. People at the lodge responded immediately and called for emergency services. The pilot was fatally injured and the passenger sustained serious injury. The passenger succumbed to his injuries 6 days later. The aircraft was destroyed.

Inspection of the airframe at the site revealed that the left main spar wing lift strut assembly (strut assembly) had separated near the lower fork end attachment (Figure 1). Visual examination of the strut assembly revealed excessive corrosion in the area of the separation.

The failed strut assembly was sent to the TSB Engineering Laboratory in Ottawa, Ontario, for analysis. The analysis revealed that failure of the strut assembly was initiated by excessive corrosion and thinning of the load-bearing wall inside the strut, followed by fatigue and eventual overload failure.

TSB http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/securite-safet ... D1-A1.html

AD 2015-08-04 http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guida ... enDocument

PDF http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guida ... -08-04.pdf
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corethatthermal
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Re: Small plane crash near Kenora.

Post by corethatthermal »

You should publicly out an AME like that, by the way. If your report is inaccurate it won't affect them one bit.
You aught to do your homework and make sure the report is ACCURATE, otherwise, who is the fool here? OUT anyone, but with the TRUTH !
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