Small plane crash near Kenora.

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PilotDAR
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Re: Small plane crash near Kenora.

Post by PilotDAR » Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:03 am

An owner is basically an apprentice when it comes to working on the systems of a plane.
Maybe, maybe not. I've known some very knowledgeable owners. 'Probably best if the owner and the AME reach an understanding they're both happy with, and go from there....
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photofly
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Re: Small plane crash near Kenora.

Post by photofly » Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:20 am

corethatthermal wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:57 am
Being a 1 person shop, I have had to utilize the A/C owner to do the dual insp. for flt/engine controls and it is NOT an effective way of doing things.
Knowing that you like to do things correctly, I hope they were appropriately trained on a prior occasion, and that you checked their records, before permitting this:
https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/ ... 10-557.htm
Where no AMO is involved, the AME signing the maintenance release must directly assess the qualifications of the person performing the independent check. In making an assessment of these qualifications, the AME must take into account the individual's training and experience. Completion of a Transport Canada approved course in aircraft maintenance, followed by documented proof (such as entries in an AME logbook) of satisfactory participation in similar control work would be acceptable. In the case of a pilot, an entry in the pilot's logbook by an AME, attesting that the pilot had satisfactorily completed similar control inspections under supervision, would also suffice. The AME may also consider other forms of proof that provide an equivalent level of assurance. These qualifications must, however, be assessed and accepted before the work in question takes place. It is not satisfactory for the AME signing the release to show the person performing the independent check how to perform the inspection at the time the work is completed. Such a procedure would not provide sufficient confidence that the person performing the independent check was capable of independently detecting errors overlooked by the AME.
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corethatthermal
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Re: Small plane crash near Kenora.

Post by corethatthermal » Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:39 am

In the case of a pilot, an entry in the pilot's logbook by an AME, attesting that the pilot had satisfactorily completed similar control inspections under supervision, would also suffice. The AME may also consider other forms of proof that provide an equivalent level of assurance. These qualifications must, however, be assessed and accepted before the work in question takes place. It is not satisfactory for the AME signing the release to show the person performing the independent check how to perform the inspection at the time the work is completed. Such a procedure would not provide sufficient confidence that the person performing the independent check was capable of independently detecting errors overlooked by the AME.
Whether it is a pilot or AME., the person MUST be able to go through the whole procedure of rigging and look at everything involved in the flight/engine control work as if they were doing the work themselves!
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jakeandelwood
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Re: Small plane crash near Kenora.

Post by jakeandelwood » Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:06 am

If you are paying a so called reputable shop to preform your annual (not some guy on the side out of a back of a pickup) and your paying a substantial amount of money and your bill says they did an AD search you shouldn't have to do the search yourself again. The last shop that did my annual in which I will never go back charged me well over 100 hours, there was some other stuff but none of it was split up on the bill so I have no idea where that labour went. I guess I shouldn't have trusted them to do a thorough AD search when they left some of my cowl fasteners loose, lost my wheel chocks, lost my pitot cover and left my neatly coiled and tied engine heater cord hanging out my cowl flap wrapped around the exhaust pipe, idiots.
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Last edited by jakeandelwood on Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Small plane crash near Kenora.

Post by rookiepilot » Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:49 pm

jakeandelwood wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:06 am
If you are paying a so called reputable shop to preform your annual (not some guy on the side out of a back of a pickup) and your paying a substantial amount of money and your bill says they did an AD search you shouldn't have to do the search yourself again. The last shop that did my annual in which I will never go back charged me well over 100 hours, there was some other stuff but none of it was split up on the bill so I have no idea where that labour went. I guess I shouldn't have trusted them to do a thorough AD search when they left some of my cowl fasteners loose, lost my wheel chocks, lost my pilot cover and left my neatly coiled and tied engine heater cord hanging out my cowl flap wrapped around the exhaust pipe, idiots.
Some people simply don't give a rip, whether they be AMEs, pilots or controllers. Aviation doesn't change people's character them came in with.

This is why I "trust but verify" -- which seems to get some people's nose out of joint for some strange reason, that I don't blindly trust people. Tough, I say. Take it or leave it.

You should publicly out an AME like that, by the way. If your report is inaccurate it won't affect them one bit.
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jakeandelwood
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Re: Small plane crash near Kenora.

Post by jakeandelwood » Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:29 pm

rookiepilot wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:49 pm
jakeandelwood wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:06 am
If you are paying a so called reputable shop to preform your annual (not some guy on the side out of a back of a pickup) and your paying a substantial amount of money and your bill says they did an AD search you shouldn't have to do the search yourself again. The last shop that did my annual in which I will never go back charged me well over 100 hours, there was some other stuff but none of it was split up on the bill so I have no idea where that labour went. I guess I shouldn't have trusted them to do a thorough AD search when they left some of my cowl fasteners loose, lost my wheel chocks, lost my pilot cover and left my neatly coiled and tied engine heater cord hanging out my cowl flap wrapped around the exhaust pipe, idiots.
Some people simply don't give a rip, whether they be AMEs, pilots or controllers. Aviation doesn't change people's character them came in with.

This is why I "trust but verify" -- which seems to get some people's nose out of joint for some strange reason, that I don't blindly trust people. Tough, I say. Take it or leave it.

You should publicly out an AME like that, by the way. If your report is inaccurate it won't affect them one bit.
Yes, "trust but verify" is a good way to go about it, some people get very offended when you double check their work.
As for the AME, they already have a bit of a bad name for charging top dollar for mediocre work, unfortunately I was stuck at the time and had to use them, I was warned but hoped for better I guess.
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Re: Small plane crash near Kenora.

Post by BMLtech » Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:41 am

This thread has drifted way off topic. The subject aircraft in this accident did not have any record of the lift strut AD being complied with, and 2 fine people lost their lives as a result.And the methodology of determining the serviceability of the lift strut has also been brought into question by the TSB. A harsh lesson for all you private owners out there.
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J31
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Re: Small plane crash near Kenora.

Post by J31 » Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:45 am

On 30 March 2019, a privately registered, ski-equipped Piper J3C-65 aircraft (registration C-FLDQ, serial number 16839) was en route from Pistol Lake, Ontario, to Snowshoe Lake, Ontario (approximately 53 nautical miles northwest of Kenora, Ontario), with the pilot and 1 passenger on board. The intent of the flight was to transport the passenger to a hunting and fishing outpost lodge to complete some renovations. The passenger was an employee of the pilot, who was also the owner of the aircraft and the lodge.

On arrival at Snowshoe Lake, the pilot conducted a low pass from a north- northwest direction, adjacent to the outpost lodge, to advise lodge guests of their arrival. During the pass, control of the aircraft was lost and the aircraft struck the frozen lake surface. People at the lodge responded immediately and called for emergency services. The pilot was fatally injured and the passenger sustained serious injury. The passenger succumbed to his injuries 6 days later. The aircraft was destroyed.

Inspection of the airframe at the site revealed that the left main spar wing lift strut assembly (strut assembly) had separated near the lower fork end attachment (Figure 1). Visual examination of the strut assembly revealed excessive corrosion in the area of the separation.

The failed strut assembly was sent to the TSB Engineering Laboratory in Ottawa, Ontario, for analysis. The analysis revealed that failure of the strut assembly was initiated by excessive corrosion and thinning of the load-bearing wall inside the strut, followed by fatigue and eventual overload failure.

TSB http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/securite-safet ... D1-A1.html

AD 2015-08-04 http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guida ... enDocument

PDF http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guida ... -08-04.pdf
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corethatthermal
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Re: Small plane crash near Kenora.

Post by corethatthermal » Wed Aug 21, 2019 5:36 pm

You should publicly out an AME like that, by the way. If your report is inaccurate it won't affect them one bit.
You aught to do your homework and make sure the report is ACCURATE, otherwise, who is the fool here? OUT anyone, but with the TRUTH !
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