but then again why not be able to use all the tools available
Well, out of interest, I've reviewed a half dozen floatplane flight manuals/supplements I have (including the Beaver and Twin Otter). They all state in normal procedures to hold the controls full nose up after touching down on the water until reaching taxi speed.
So I don't see how pushing the bows of the floats into the water is a "tool" for piloting [at least those] aircraft in accordance with their approved procedures, so why be able to use it?
BamajiAirInc. wrote: ↑Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:27 am
Push forward hard once its on the water it wont flip,but it will porpoise.
Uhhh another hugely aircraft and float specific thing, If someone does that on a 185 with CAP 3000’s I would be terrified to watch and a good chance she’s flipping
PilotDAR wrote: ↑Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:48 pm
Howabout just fly proper landings which do not require dramatic action to correct....
AuxBatOn wrote: ↑Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:25 pm
Land long? Go around?
This isn't necessarily about landing long. Have you never been required to perform a water landing that is at the edge of your aircraft's theoretical envelope?
PilotDAR wrote: ↑Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:47 pm
Well, out of interest, I've reviewed a half dozen floatplane flight manuals/supplements I have (including the Beaver and Twin Otter). They all state in normal procedures to hold the controls full nose up after touching down on the water until reaching taxi speed.
So I don't see how pushing the bows of the floats into the water is a "tool" for piloting [at least those] aircraft in accordance with their approved procedures, so why be able to use it?
Perhaps the test pilots were only familiar with the ubiquitous stick full back technique and thus, never tested anything else which means nothing else ever made it in to the supplement?
By all means, take your twin otter to some tiny piss pot lake and land and follow the approved procedures and watch it skip an extra 100 feet farther than necessary, slapping the heels off the water. Or stuff the nose, honk on the reverse and stop right fuckin now. It would seem there is at least anecdotal evidence that it's a pretty effective technique in this particular aircraft /float combination.
By all means, take your twin otter to some tiny piss pot lake and land
Or, just decline to land there in the first place. There have been a few lakes I have declined.
Sure there are other ways to do things than those presented it the flight manual, but they are unproven, and therefore their outcome uncertain. I suppose it you own the plane, and are alone, you are not morally bound. But, if you're flying a group of paying passengers in the boss's plane, do you want to be a test pilot then? You wouldn't fly a plane with unproven maintenance done to it, why would you fly it with an unproven technique?
It's like rough water - I was taught to slowly push the stick forward after landing and keep the floats "cutting" as opposed to exposing the bottoms of the floats smacking the water and aircraft banging around. A/C like the bch 18 are very prone to split keels, avoiding rough water was always the priority but any wave will take it's toll, easing stress on floats and aircraft were important. I was even taught to slow taxi with stick forward and especially when turning downwind at idle rpm, stick forward and ailerons(possibly flaps also) as required to help with the turn. All this was practiced by seasoned full time float drivers and hauling back on the stick was a complete "no no" as was stick back and hi power turns down wind, can't turn down wind at idle power sail it back.
I can remember years ago meeting a guy who was a float instructor and I read his manual. I had been flying floats for a living at that time for about 5 years. I can remember thinking at the time "what the hell is this guy teaching, his water handling was almost opposite to everything I had been taught. I'm thinking that flying floats is becoming a lost art but doing it for a living and enjoying it for recreation are two different things.
hold the controls full nose up after touching down on the water until reaching taxi speed.
Another example of the flight manual written by "test" pilots with 3 dozen lawyers peering over his/her back !
That is a foolish statement, for seasoned pilots who would leave it on the step, but a little nose high, until it wants to fall off the step onto its taxi position. This thread perfectly shows that every A/C has a slightly ( and sometimes quite different ) approach to optimize landings and take-offs. Best to listen to 100 years of experience, then test and learn, then operate within your ( or your companies) level of safety which , of course, is often well within the A/C s limits. When has any flight manual spoken about backside approaches and how to do it safely? Somer operators/operations MUST do it everyday to stay in business, tell them that they are wrong lOL
As a commercial pilot, YOU do everything to maintain the highest levels of safety, optimize your flying to provide minimum wear and tear, and finally manage the flying to generate the most profits and least waste! A nose or tail dragging maneuver shows poor pilotage at a minimum iF it is not an emergency maneuver. But, you are not a professional IF you do not know or are not able to utilize the A/C within its full potential to avoid accidents or incidents.
Flying the plane should be secondary to your abilities,,,,, Being a professional part of the organization and effectively handling ANY emergency etc in a most professional and capable manner is why YOU have a commercial licence
If you are approaching an intersection ( with a car, not a plane ) and the light is green, what do you do? A learner driver ( private pilot ) may buzz on through the intersection, not looking to the left of the right or the rear view mirror. What does a seasoned wise driver do?
Yes. you look left and right, looking for the driver who failed to see the light or thought it was green, or the drunk driver etc. That is defensive AND seasoned driving. Accidents don't just happen , they often result from breaking the rules of the road ( Air)
The same thing happens with the seasoned/ commercial pilot,, they fly the A/C instinctively and are looking out for the gotcha moments, they are managing the cockpit/cabin discourse and control the anxiety level with subtle ease. Their flight plan has already arrived at destination with only the unknown to be easily managed in a professional manner.
IF you want to be professional at anything you go and define the limits ( personal/ device etc) and then operate within the limits and your ability KNOWING and HAVING contingencies for most everything that goes wrong!
Following an 80 year old manual word for word that was written when the airplane had less then 100 hours of test pilot time on it, is idiotic. Countless hours of real life operational conditions, over decades count for way more then the manual. That being said I am not sure pulling back or pushing forward are really gonna make a significant difference.
CLguy wrote: ↑Sun Jun 16, 2019 7:08 pm
hold the controls full nose up after touching down on the water until reaching taxi speed.
Let me know how that technique works out for you when you’re landing in 4 foot swells in the Indian Ocean on a daily basis.
If you need short field techniques for a landing in the Indian Ocean, you are doing something seriously wrong though.
digits, I am trying to see where you are going with that comment?
Although there are not many obstacles above the water in the Dives, there are many just below the surface. With ocean swells washing across the lagoons coupled with high winds present many confined areas of operations in the Maldives.
digits_ wrote: ↑Mon Jun 17, 2019 6:38 pm
If you need short field techniques for a landing in the Indian Ocean, you are doing something seriously wrong though.
So you're advocating smashing across more swells/waves as opposed to fewer? Does this technique draw on as much twin otter float captain time as I assume it does?
Following an 80 year old manual word for word that was written when the airplane had less then 100 hours of test pilot time on it, is idiotic.
Hmmm, at what age do flight manual supplements I wrote, and are approved by TC, transition from being approved and authoritative, to being idiotic? Perhaps I'll revise them before that age!
CLguy wrote: ↑Sun Jun 16, 2019 7:08 pm
hold the controls full nose up after touching down on the water until reaching taxi speed.
Let me know how that technique works out for you when you’re landing in 4 foot swells in the Indian Ocean on a daily basis.
If you need short field techniques for a landing in the Indian Ocean, you are doing something seriously wrong though.
digits, I am trying to see where you are going with that comment?
It was a joke. Needing short field techniques to land in an area that's 70 million square km big. You have to admit it sounds a bit funny if you look at the numbers.
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If you need short field techniques for a landing in the Indian Ocean, you are doing something seriously wrong though.
digits, I am trying to see where you are going with that comment?
It was a joke. Needing short field techniques to land in an area that's 70 million square km big. You have to admit it sounds a bit funny if you look at the numbers.
