Reading the forums Could Prevent a Disaster like the 737 Max

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pelmet
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Reading the forums Could Prevent a Disaster like the 737 Max

Post by pelmet » Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:00 am

Some may have noticed that I have brought up a lot of threads on safety related subjects. While it is unfortunate that a few have taken offense at getting at the harsh truth of learning lessons and ended up halting threads that could have had what I call a golden nugget of information, I hope that perhaps somewhere, someday a thread from here will prevent an incident.

Late last year, a 737 Max crashed in Indonesia. There was much talk about it in the news but not much technical detail. Boeing subsequently put out some information for the pilots but it appears that it was insufficient. Max pilots continued to fly their aircraft. Then another one crashed in March. But was it avoidable. There is plenty of debate but it appears that the second pilot was aware of the MCAS issue. But how familiar did he make himself in the intervening months. Unknown.

If the pilots had been reading the Pprune forum and trying to get as much info as possible, he might have come across this in November....

https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/614 ... st10311501
"The MCAS (Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System) is implemented on the 737 MAX to enhance pitch characteristics with flaps UP and at elevated AOA. The MCAS function commands nose down stabilizer to enhance pitch characteristics during steep turns with elevated load factors, and during flaps up flight at airspeeds approaching stall.

MCAS is activated without pilot input and only operates in manual, flaps up flight. The system is designed to allow the flight crew to use column trim switch or stabilizer aisle stand cutout switches to override MCAS input. The function is commanded by the Flight Control Computer using input data from sensors and other airplane systems."

and this...

https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/614 ... st10311680
Quote:
Originally Posted by rmac2
"If MCAS only activates with no flap deployed, and activates most positively at slower speed and therefore likely lower altitude, then I think that my first action on intermittent runaway Stab trim close to the ground might be to pop out flaps 1 and see if that stops it. Just a thought.

It's worth pointing out that only a pilot who was aware of MCAS and knew knew it's operation parameters might think to try that. Until a few days ago there were no airline pilots who fit that description."



The information to save the Ethiopian pilots from even having to deal with the unwanted nose down trimming was out there and posted months before their final flight. They could have read it and come up with a plan in case the same thing ever happened to them. All they had to do was(and the plan would have been) to leave the flaps extended and return for landing with an annoying stickshaker problem. Instead, they are dead. I am not blaming them, but it is a good example of how digging deeper can prevent a disaster. The golden nugget was out there. But you have to search for things like this. Read the forums and dig deeper. There can be a lot of useless and even wrong information but there can be a wealth of good information.
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Last edited by pelmet on Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: How reading the forums can save hundreds of lives

Post by P_smith83 » Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:55 am

That is true, but from my understanding the flight in that aircraft prior experienced the same issue but were able to overcome it. So where is the communication between flight crews?
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Re: Reading the forums Could Prevent a Disaster like the 737 Max

Post by rxl » Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:38 pm

I agree that pilots should always "dig deeper" and strive to improve their skills and knowledge, but critical safety information like this should be forthcoming from the manufacturer, not picked up off of an anonymous aviation forum.
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Re: Reading the forums Could Prevent a Disaster like the 737 Max

Post by TeePeeCreeper » Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:59 pm

rxl wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:38 pm
I agree that pilots should always "dig deeper" and strive to improve their skills and knowledge, but critical safety information like this should be forthcoming from the manufacturer, not picked up off of an anonymous aviation forum.
Agreed but with “headlines” akin to the one used for this thread.... heck I don’t fly a Max but wanted to see what “nuggets of information” my friend Pelmet had on the subject.

Thanks Pelmet, guess I dodged one back there buddy! Always appreciate your posting. Again....
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pelmet
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Re: Reading the forums Could Prevent a Disaster like the 737 Max

Post by pelmet » Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:11 pm

rxl wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:38 pm
I agree that pilots should always "dig deeper" and strive to improve their skills and knowledge, but critical safety information like this should be forthcoming from the manufacturer, not picked up off of an anonymous aviation forum.
History has proven that you can’t trust the manufacturer or the regulating authorities to provide all the vital information you need.

There is just too much stuff to know.

P.S. Glad to be of help Tp;)
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Re: Reading the forums Could Prevent a Disaster like the 737 Max

Post by Victory » Wed Jun 19, 2019 6:53 pm

I would like to be the second one to congratulate you on your vigilance.
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Re: Reading the forums Could Prevent a Disaster like the 737 Max

Post by C.W.E. » Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:30 pm

I would like to be the third.

We need more people who try and help pilots stay informed.

C. E.
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pelmet
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Re: Reading the forums Could Prevent a Disaster like the 737 Max

Post by pelmet » Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:01 am

C.W.E. wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:30 pm
I would like to be the third.

We need more people who try and help pilots stay informed.

C. E.
Chuck(CWE) has posted some very useful information over the years with his huge and wide ranging experience. One that sticks out in my mind is the hazards of trying to takeoff in a DC-3 with frost on the wings. Some out there who have bent the rules up north doing such a thing could be tempted to bend them with a DC-3 as well with its reputation for being able to handle a lot of just about anything. Who knows Chuck, your passing on of info may have prevented a tragedy. It is the kind of thing one usually does not find out about(although ironically I did talk to a guy today who probably that did just that).

Of course, there are always the ......other types. We know their type of personality.

I remember one very experienced off strip Twin Otter pilot(a profession that had lots of damaged aircraft) from way back that wouldn't share one bit of his extensive knowledge with others when asked. Overheard his answer to another less experienced diver which was...'secrets'. Sadly, some people are just like that I guess and figure that keeping a secret(or making a sarcastic statement) is somehow reasonable. Subsequently, another driver and his cojo died in a crash. Knew them both-good guys. Likely would have happened anyways but......who knows.

Try passing on some info.
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Re: Reading the forums Could Prevent a Disaster like the 737 Max

Post by Victory » Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:43 am

Just for accuracy's sake, CWE passed on that knowledge after a DC-3 crashed on takeoff with contaminated wings. I'm not saying it's his job to stop pilots from doing dumb things. It would be weird to come on here and just randomly hand out lessons.
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Re: Reading the forums Could Prevent a Disaster like the 737 Max

Post by pelmet » Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:01 am

Victory wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:43 am
Just for accuracy's sake, CWE passed on that knowledge after a DC-3 crashed on takeoff with contaminated wings. I'm not saying it's his job to stop pilots from doing dumb things. It would be weird to come on here and just randomly hand out lessons.
Whatever the reason was for posting, it was important info, much appreciated and important. Kind of like the Max info. Who cares what the reasoning for the info being posted if it is saving your life.

But that’s just my opinion. I suppose It is possible the Ethiopian guys thought it was weird to read a post for some strange reason too. Some people actually do think like that. We will almost certainly never know.
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Re: Reading the forums Could Prevent a Disaster like the 737 Max

Post by rookiepilot » Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:37 am

pelmet wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:01 am

Try passing on some info.
Actually the below thread was awesome for that.

Whole bunch of different pilots passing on their personal scary flights or errors in judgement.
It's interesting not everyone chooses to share. I wonder why?

http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... 4&t=132382
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Re: Reading the forums Could Prevent a Disaster like the 737 Max

Post by 5x5 » Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:43 pm

rookiepilot wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:37 am
pelmet wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:01 am

Try passing on some info.
Actually the below thread was awesome for that.

Whole bunch of different pilots passing on their personal scary flights or errors in judgement.
It's interesting not everyone chooses to share. I wonder why?

http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... 4&t=132382
Ridicule and condescension could be reasons why. Possibly people don't share because they don't want to be criticized or attacked, not on the information they're providing, but their own knowledge and experience and even personalities. AvCanada isn't exactly a non-judgemental, non-threatening site.
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Re: Reading the forums Could Prevent a Disaster like the 737 Max

Post by rookiepilot » Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:52 pm

5x5 wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:43 pm

Ridicule and condescension could be reasons why. Possibly people don't share because they don't want to be criticized or attacked, not on the information they're providing, but their own knowledge and experience and even personalities. AvCanada isn't exactly a non-judgemental, non-threatening site.
:shock:
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Re: Reading the forums Could Prevent a Disaster like the 737 Max

Post by pelmet » Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:40 pm

rookiepilot wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:52 pm
5x5 wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:43 pm

Ridicule and condescension could be reasons why. Possibly people don't share because they don't want to be criticized or attacked, not on the information they're providing, but their own knowledge and experience and even personalities. AvCanada isn't exactly a non-judgemental, non-threatening site.
:shock:
Exactly. What a shame. They say people’s true character come out on anonymous forums etc on the internet.
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Re: Reading the forums Could Prevent a Disaster like the 737 Max

Post by TeePeeCreeper » Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:47 pm

pelmet wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:40 pm
rookiepilot wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:52 pm
5x5 wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:43 pm

Ridicule and condescension could be reasons why. Possibly people don't share because they don't want to be criticized or attacked, not on the information they're providing, but their own knowledge and experience and even personalities. AvCanada isn't exactly a non-judgemental, non-threatening site.
:shock:
Exactly. What a shame. They say people’s true character come out on anonymous forums etc on the internet.
You got that right... re:using someone’s divorce to win an argument on the internet in a past thread of yours. I wish I knew who you were in person...
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Re: Reading the forums Could Prevent a Disaster like the 737 Max

Post by rookiepilot » Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:48 pm

pelmet wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:40 pm
rookiepilot wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:52 pm
5x5 wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:43 pm

Ridicule and condescension could be reasons why. Possibly people don't share because they don't want to be criticized or attacked, not on the information they're providing, but their own knowledge and experience and even personalities. AvCanada isn't exactly a non-judgemental, non-threatening site.
:shock:
Exactly. What a shame. They say people’s true character come out on anonymous forums etc on the internet.
Oh, yes.
Like when a poster attacks another poster over his divorce when he doesn't agree with him, as we've seen you do to another poster?

You are the very last one to opine on character, sir.

I don't know either of you but that is beyond classless.
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Re: Reading the forums Could Prevent a Disaster like the 737 Max

Post by pelmet » Thu Jun 20, 2019 4:26 pm

I respond to bullies with an agenda in mind. Piss them off at least twice as much as they try to do to me. Two of of the worst on this site are right here on this thread. There are others as well. I can’t change the disgusting personality character of bullies(one even insinuates physical threats - all for just trying to analyze and prevent accidents). But I have to say that I do get great pleasure at seeing their rage at being treated the way the way they try to treat others (although I would much prefer to stick to the discussion of accident prevention).

You did start a good thread on black hole departures recently. It was a good subject. I could have made the same style of response as you have made on multiple threads I started in the last year which ended up stalling them or having good info permanently removed. But instead, I posted some good info to add to the thread as an example for you on how a discussion on this forum should be, even if it was started by someone I haven’t been getting along with. No sarcastic comments(like the one you appear to have just deleted), just good info. Much more professional. I challenge you to try it sometime. You will enjoy it......
viewtopic.php?f=118&t=132379
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Re: Reading the forums Could Prevent a Disaster like the 737 Max

Post by rookiepilot » Thu Jun 20, 2019 4:48 pm

Duplicate
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Re: Reading the forums Could Prevent a Disaster like the 737 Max

Post by rookiepilot » Thu Jun 20, 2019 4:50 pm

pelmet wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 4:26 pm
I posted some good info to add to the thread as an example for you on how a discussion on this forum should be, just good info. Much more professional. I challenge you to try it sometime. You will enjoy it......
viewtopic.php?f=118&t=132379
Wow. How did any of us ever get along without you guiding us Pelmet?
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Re: Reading the forums Could Prevent a Disaster like the 737 Max

Post by pelmet » Thu Jun 20, 2019 4:51 pm

Double post.
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Re: Reading the forums Could Prevent a Disaster like the 737 Max

Post by pelmet » Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:20 pm

rookiepilot wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 4:50 pm
Wow. How did any of us ever get along without you guiding us Pelmet?
Why don’t you let us know. How were you.....getting along?



Anyways, time to get back on subject. Some will never change(no surprise). There is an interesting article in the news today with details in not overly technical terms.

https://nationalpost.com/news/world/it- ... pit-wheels

There has been much discussion about the decision of the pilots to turn that stab trim back on again. I suspect that they were desperate at that point anyways and it was a last ditch attempt to save a situation that was already about to be fatal.

So once again, if someone has to ferry one of these aircraft prior to it being fixed(perhaps to where it will be modified). Consider not retracting the flaps if you find yourself in the same situation as they were initially in. The manufacturer doesn’t appear to give this advice so look into it prior to flight.
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Re: Reading the forums Could Prevent a Disaster like the 737 Max

Post by TeePeeCreeper » Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:54 pm

pelmet wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 4:51 pm
rookiepilot wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 4:50 pm
Wow. How did any of us ever get along without you guiding us Pelmet?
Why don’t you let us know. How were you.....getting along.



Time to get back on subject. Some will never change(no surprise). There is an interesting article in the news today with details in not overly technical terms.

https://nationalpost.com/news/world/it- ... pit-wheels

There has been much discussion about the decision of the pilots to turn that stab trim back on again. I suspect that they were desperate at that point anyways and it was a last ditch attempt to save a situation that was already about to become fatal anyways.

So once again, if someone has to ferry one of these aircraft prior to it being fixed(perhaps to where it will be modified). Consider not retracting the flaps if you find yourself in the same situation as they were initially in. The manufacturer doesn’t appear to give this advice so look into it prior to flight.
Huh, The National Post but not from the manufacturer. Yep I feel safer already Pelmet!

PS: Only a a deranged individual would post a National Post article to promote their self appointed cause. All the while calling someone a “Bully” and use that individual’s past hardship to promote THEIR OWN point of view on an AVIATION forum no less. But yeah Pelmet, I think you to be a real classy act.

Back to the topic at hand....

I doubt any of the posters here (myself included) are typed or have maintained currency on the MAX in the sim...

Have you guys and girls that are typed heard anything from the manufacturer directly?
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Re: Reading the forums Could Prevent a Disaster like the 737 Max

Post by pelmet » Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:13 pm

TeePeeCreeper wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:54 pm
PS: Only a a deranged individual would post a National Post article to promote their self appointed cause.
I'll let others decide who they feel is making more beneficial posts between me....
pelmet wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:20 pm
So once again, if someone has to ferry one of these aircraft prior to it being fixed(perhaps to where it will be modified). Consider not retracting the flaps if you find yourself in the same situation as they were initially in. The manufacturer doesn’t appear to give this advice so look into it prior to flight.
and you.....
TeePeeCreeper wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:54 pm
I doubt any of the posters here (myself included) are typed or have maintained currency on the MAX in the sim...

Have you guys and girls that are typed heard anything from the manufacturer directly?
I wonder how those Ethiopian pilots would have responded to your question a few months back. Probably with a ....Yes.

Have thoroughly enjoyed all my discussions with you...and I do mean that :wink: .
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Last edited by pelmet on Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Reading the forums Could Prevent a Disaster like the 737 Max

Post by pelmet » Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:43 pm

Here is the fleet bulletin that was issued by Boeing after the first crash. They seem to have not mentioned anything about flaps.

https://theaircurrent.com/aviation-safe ... air-crash/

Haven't heard of them issuing anything different since that time.

Maybe one of the new memory items will be...

If flaps extended...………...…..maintain flap extension(do not retract to the UP position).
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Re: Reading the forums Could Prevent a Disaster like the 737 Max

Post by iflyforpie » Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:34 pm

It is good for pilots to know as much as they can about their aircraft and the way systems interrelate.

However, as we have seen it is often dangerous to perform actions without a complete analysis of their effects. Kind of like a “root cause analysis” we need to do a “branch effect analysis” to what these actions might produce.

Boeing’s recommendation for MCAS failure was to hit the stab trim disconnect. Seems simple enough, gets right to the direct cause of the problem—a stabilizer trim motor driving the stabilizer to a nose down position.

What Boeing didn’t consider was the loads on the stabilizer in an out-of-trim condition and that pilots might need that motor to help them move it—thus re introducing MCAS.

Extending the flaps will deactivate MCAS, but it’s not without consequences. Flaps 1 speed is 230 KIAS. What are the implications of extending flaps at speeds beyond that.. like if you’re in a dive with nose down trim? Damage to the flaps or leading edge devices? Aerodynamic effects which might augment the effects of MCAS or otherwise negatively affect aircraft handling? Perhaps if it was recognized as an MCAS failure early in the flight the flaps could be left extended. But all of these must be considered.

Engaging autopilot will also deactivate the MCAS. But usually having control difficulties is the last time you want to engage an autopilot... particularly if you don’t have a mode in mind that it will capture while it tries to figure out the trim. Will CWS disengage MCAS or be able to correct a massive out-of-trim condition in time?

But the reality is, the reason why this plane is grounded is because there is a system with a single point of failure that doesn’t tell you it’s failed and can’t be selectively deactivated without affecting other systems.
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Geez did I say that....? Or just think it....?

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