Reading the forums Could Prevent a Disaster like the 737 Max

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pelmet
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Re: Reading the forums Could Prevent a Disaster like the 737 Max

Post by pelmet »

rookiepilot wrote: Thu Jun 20, 2019 4:50 pm Wow. How did any of us ever get along without you guiding us Pelmet?
Why don’t you let us know. How were you.....getting along?



Anyways, time to get back on subject. Some will never change(no surprise). There is an interesting article in the news today with details in not overly technical terms.

https://nationalpost.com/news/world/it- ... pit-wheels

There has been much discussion about the decision of the pilots to turn that stab trim back on again. I suspect that they were desperate at that point anyways and it was a last ditch attempt to save a situation that was already about to be fatal.

So once again, if someone has to ferry one of these aircraft prior to it being fixed(perhaps to where it will be modified). Consider not retracting the flaps if you find yourself in the same situation as they were initially in. The manufacturer doesn’t appear to give this advice so look into it prior to flight.
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TeePeeCreeper
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Re: Reading the forums Could Prevent a Disaster like the 737 Max

Post by TeePeeCreeper »

pelmet wrote: Thu Jun 20, 2019 4:51 pm
rookiepilot wrote: Thu Jun 20, 2019 4:50 pm Wow. How did any of us ever get along without you guiding us Pelmet?
Why don’t you let us know. How were you.....getting along.



Time to get back on subject. Some will never change(no surprise). There is an interesting article in the news today with details in not overly technical terms.

https://nationalpost.com/news/world/it- ... pit-wheels

There has been much discussion about the decision of the pilots to turn that stab trim back on again. I suspect that they were desperate at that point anyways and it was a last ditch attempt to save a situation that was already about to become fatal anyways.

So once again, if someone has to ferry one of these aircraft prior to it being fixed(perhaps to where it will be modified). Consider not retracting the flaps if you find yourself in the same situation as they were initially in. The manufacturer doesn’t appear to give this advice so look into it prior to flight.
Huh, The National Post but not from the manufacturer. Yep I feel safer already Pelmet!

PS: Only a a deranged individual would post a National Post article to promote their self appointed cause. All the while calling someone a “Bully” and use that individual’s past hardship to promote THEIR OWN point of view on an AVIATION forum no less. But yeah Pelmet, I think you to be a real classy act.

Back to the topic at hand....

I doubt any of the posters here (myself included) are typed or have maintained currency on the MAX in the sim...

Have you guys and girls that are typed heard anything from the manufacturer directly?
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pelmet
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Re: Reading the forums Could Prevent a Disaster like the 737 Max

Post by pelmet »

TeePeeCreeper wrote: Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:54 pm PS: Only a a deranged individual would post a National Post article to promote their self appointed cause.
I'll let others decide who they feel is making more beneficial posts between me....
pelmet wrote: Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:20 pm So once again, if someone has to ferry one of these aircraft prior to it being fixed(perhaps to where it will be modified). Consider not retracting the flaps if you find yourself in the same situation as they were initially in. The manufacturer doesn’t appear to give this advice so look into it prior to flight.
and you.....
TeePeeCreeper wrote: Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:54 pm I doubt any of the posters here (myself included) are typed or have maintained currency on the MAX in the sim...

Have you guys and girls that are typed heard anything from the manufacturer directly?
I wonder how those Ethiopian pilots would have responded to your question a few months back. Probably with a ....Yes.

Have thoroughly enjoyed all my discussions with you...and I do mean that :wink: .
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Last edited by pelmet on Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
pelmet
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Re: Reading the forums Could Prevent a Disaster like the 737 Max

Post by pelmet »

Here is the fleet bulletin that was issued by Boeing after the first crash. They seem to have not mentioned anything about flaps.

https://theaircurrent.com/aviation-safe ... air-crash/

Haven't heard of them issuing anything different since that time.

Maybe one of the new memory items will be...

If flaps extended...………...…..maintain flap extension(do not retract to the UP position).
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iflyforpie
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Re: Reading the forums Could Prevent a Disaster like the 737 Max

Post by iflyforpie »

It is good for pilots to know as much as they can about their aircraft and the way systems interrelate.

However, as we have seen it is often dangerous to perform actions without a complete analysis of their effects. Kind of like a “root cause analysis” we need to do a “branch effect analysis” to what these actions might produce.

Boeing’s recommendation for MCAS failure was to hit the stab trim disconnect. Seems simple enough, gets right to the direct cause of the problem—a stabilizer trim motor driving the stabilizer to a nose down position.

What Boeing didn’t consider was the loads on the stabilizer in an out-of-trim condition and that pilots might need that motor to help them move it—thus re introducing MCAS.

Extending the flaps will deactivate MCAS, but it’s not without consequences. Flaps 1 speed is 230 KIAS. What are the implications of extending flaps at speeds beyond that.. like if you’re in a dive with nose down trim? Damage to the flaps or leading edge devices? Aerodynamic effects which might augment the effects of MCAS or otherwise negatively affect aircraft handling? Perhaps if it was recognized as an MCAS failure early in the flight the flaps could be left extended. But all of these must be considered.

Engaging autopilot will also deactivate the MCAS. But usually having control difficulties is the last time you want to engage an autopilot... particularly if you don’t have a mode in mind that it will capture while it tries to figure out the trim. Will CWS disengage MCAS or be able to correct a massive out-of-trim condition in time?

But the reality is, the reason why this plane is grounded is because there is a system with a single point of failure that doesn’t tell you it’s failed and can’t be selectively deactivated without affecting other systems.
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Geez did I say that....? Or just think it....?
pelmet
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Re: Reading the forums Could Prevent a Disaster like the 737 Max

Post by pelmet »

iflyforpie wrote: Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:34 pm Extending the flaps will deactivate MCAS, but it’s not without consequences. Flaps 1 speed is 230 KIAS. What are the implications of extending flaps at speeds beyond that.. like if you’re in a dive with nose down trim? Damage to the flaps or leading edge devices? Aerodynamic effects which might augment the effects of MCAS or otherwise negatively affect aircraft handling? Perhaps if it was recognized as an MCAS failure early in the flight the flaps could be left extended. But all of these must be considered.

Thanks. It is a pleasure to see an intelligent reply. You will notice that I specifically talked about being in a situation that the crews were initially in and I stated to consider not retracting flaps. Based on the two accident both being at liftoff, perhaps that is the most likely time for this to happen. Unlikely to be any harm in maintaining a safe speed with flaps extended at some position and returning for landing with no MCAS input. Then you don't even have to switch off the stab trim.

Just a suggestion and likely not contradicting any Boeing recommendations currently published.
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rookiepilot
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Re: Reading the forums Could Prevent a Disaster like the 737 Max

Post by rookiepilot »

It's funny. I'm not particularly experienced, but I personally know a number of highly experienced pilots, a couple have been mentors to me during my training.

Without exception, every single one is very humble about their own experience and knowledge. They are deeply respected by me and others.

I respond to that form of teaching. Others might prefer to being slammed over the head.
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digits_
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Re: Reading the forums Could Prevent a Disaster like the 737 Max

Post by digits_ »

5x5 wrote: Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:43 pm
rookiepilot wrote: Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:37 am
pelmet wrote: Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:01 am
Try passing on some info.
Actually the below thread was awesome for that.

Whole bunch of different pilots passing on their personal scary flights or errors in judgement.
It's interesting not everyone chooses to share. I wonder why?

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=132382
Ridicule and condescension could be reasons why. Possibly people don't share because they don't want to be criticized or attacked, not on the information they're providing, but their own knowledge and experience and even personalities. AvCanada isn't exactly a non-judgemental, non-threatening site.
Not just that, but a pilot probably (hopefully?) only has a handful of "I almost died"-stories. Some of those make it very easy to identify who you are or who you are talking about. Especially if some of those stories pop up in an HR style interview "tell me about a time when...".
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As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
digits_
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Re: Reading the forums Could Prevent a Disaster like the 737 Max

Post by digits_ »

rookiepilot wrote: Fri Jun 21, 2019 6:28 am It's funny. I'm not particularly experienced, but I personally know a number of highly experienced pilots, a couple have been mentors to me during my training.

Without exception, every single one is very humble about their own experience and knowledge. They are deeply respected by me and others.

I respond to that form of teaching. Others might prefer to being slammed over the head.
I agree.

In a way, their experience level is irrelevant. They don't flaunt it or use it as an argument why something is a certain way. However, their experience has often given them the tools to explain something clearly and is valuable that way.
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As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
pelmet
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Re: Reading the forums Could Prevent a Disaster like the 737 Max

Post by pelmet »

rookiepilot wrote: Fri Jun 21, 2019 6:28 am It's funny. I'm not particularly experienced, but I personally know a number of highly experienced pilots, a couple have been mentors to me during my training.

Without exception, every single one is very humble about their own experience and knowledge. They are deeply respected by me and others.

I respond to that form of teaching. Others might prefer to being slammed over the head.
Different people respond to things in different ways. I personally recommend sticking to what works best for a person and avoiding locations, places, threads, etc where they find that they don't respond well. One should stick with what works best for them.
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