North Star BT67 put down on lake

Topics related to accidents, incidents & over due aircraft should be placed in this forum.

Moderators: ahramin, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore

7ECA
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 732
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2014 4:33 pm

Re: North Star BT67 put down on lake

Post by 7ECA » Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:51 pm

Assuming the intent was to reduce prop RPM after takeoff, why would you be pulling the prop levers all the way back into feather?

Seems like just another odd theory.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Honour is a man's gift to himself ~Duke Elegant
Ass, Licence, Job. In that order.

Illya Kuryakin
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1291
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 11:14 pm
Location: The Gulag Archipelago

Re: North Star BT67 put down on lake

Post by Illya Kuryakin » Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:23 pm

corethatthermal wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:01 pm
Could they have made the throttle levers any taller?
These things are flown by biker wannabes. The tall throttles make the drivers think of ape hangars.
Illya
---------- ADS -----------
  
Wish I didn't know now, what I didn't know then.

Just another canuck
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1922
Joined: Wed May 21, 2008 6:21 am
Location: The Lake.

Re: North Star BT67 put down on lake

Post by Just another canuck » Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:17 pm

7ECA wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:51 pm
Assuming the intent was to reduce prop RPM after takeoff, why would you be pulling the prop levers all the way back into feather?

Seems like just another odd theory.
It's late. It's dark. You're tired. And the possibly/likely inexperienced FO was staring at the RPM gauges and nothing else. Tough to do? Yes. Impossible? No. I'm not saying this is for sure what happened but to me is the likeliest of scenarios so far.

If I remember correctly, and the picture seems to confirm it, there is no ground and flight idle on the -3. Just off and on.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the things you did do.
So throw off the bowlines.
Sail away from the safe harbor.
Catch the trade winds in your sails.
Explore. Dream. Discover.

bring me the horizon
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 59
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2012 6:48 pm

Re: North Star BT67 put down on lake

Post by bring me the horizon » Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:50 pm

I don't buy it. Max takeoff power is 100% torque and governs at 1700 rpm. Passed 400' and you set climb power, which is 95% torque and 1700 rpm. So essentially, you don't touch the props until you level out for cruise which could be anywhere between 1000-1500 rpm making sure you don't over torque past 95%.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Meatservo
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2423
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2005 11:07 pm
Location: Negative sequencial vortex

Re: North Star BT67 put down on lake

Post by Meatservo » Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:30 pm

Illya Kuryakin wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:23 pm
corethatthermal wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:01 pm
Could they have made the throttle levers any taller?
These things are flown by biker wannabes. The tall throttles make the drivers think of ape hangars.
Illya
*HANGERS

Why are people so consistently unable to understand the difference between a hangar and a hanger?
---------- ADS -----------
  
If I'd known I was going to live this long, I'd have taken better care of myself

shimmydampner
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1532
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2004 3:59 pm

Re: North Star BT67 put down on lake

Post by shimmydampner » Tue Jun 25, 2019 12:13 am

Illya Kuryakin wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:25 pm
WOW
The hot air. Some day I'll just land one in a swamp, then tune here to learn how I did.
Illya
You didn't mind all the speculation on the last dual flameout incident. Why've you got your knickers in a twist over this one?
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
PilotDAR
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2931
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:46 pm
Location: Near CNJ4 Orillia, Ontario

Re: North Star BT67 put down on lake

Post by PilotDAR » Tue Jun 25, 2019 3:56 am

Basler has made the engine control knobs correctly, so they conform to the required shapes. In the dark, you can feel the shape of the knob to assure you're holding the correct one before moving it. On the Basler, the power levers are very tall (with round, black knobs) because there is a spring loaded mechanism within each power lever arm for the reverse interlock sliding elements.

The condition levers have gates at the top of their motion, so both would have to be moved to the left, and then toward closed to shut down the engine(s), and as said, the prop levers have a gate at feather. So, a pilot would not be either shutting down engines, nor feathering propellers, without purposefully moving the levers past gates. The controls conform to all the norms of PT6 engine powered airplanes.

Letting alone pulling engine control suddenly all the way back without an accompanying emergency, there is no reason to mistake the engine controls in a Basler.

If there are any other Basler cockpit control questions, I'm in a hangar with two Baslers for the week....
---------- ADS -----------
  

goingnowherefast
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1548
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:24 am

Re: North Star BT67 put down on lake

Post by goingnowherefast » Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:17 am

The only way I'd believe the condition lever story is if the PM was horribly fatigued, 17 hour day at 2am fatigued. Super low experience, to the point they haven't developed muscle memory yet on type. Then have the condition lever gates worn down so bad they're ineffective.

There's just too many layers of swiss cheese to pull the condition levers back by accident. (As opposed to the power levers, since props remain at max for climb)
---------- ADS -----------
  

Just another canuck
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1922
Joined: Wed May 21, 2008 6:21 am
Location: The Lake.

Re: North Star BT67 put down on lake

Post by Just another canuck » Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:24 am

bring me the horizon wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:50 pm
I don't buy it. Max takeoff power is 100% torque and governs at 1700 rpm. Passed 400' and you set climb power, which is 95% torque and 1700 rpm. So essentially, you don't touch the props until you level out for cruise which could be anywhere between 1000-1500 rpm making sure you don't over torque past 95%.
I always pulled the props after takeoff. 1650 or 1675, I can't remember. Get em off the red line anyway.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the things you did do.
So throw off the bowlines.
Sail away from the safe harbor.
Catch the trade winds in your sails.
Explore. Dream. Discover.

Victory
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 404
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:32 am

Re: North Star BT67 put down on lake

Post by Victory » Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:11 am

bring me the horizon wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:50 pm
I don't buy it. Max takeoff power is 100% torque and governs at 1700 rpm. Passed 400' and you set climb power, which is 95% torque and 1700 rpm. So essentially, you don't touch the props until you level out for cruise which could be anywhere between 1000-1500 rpm making sure you don't over torque past 95%.
Not every company runs the same prop settings.

Also there is a chance they had already reached cruise altitude when they shut down the engines. Perhaps that altitude was low if they didn't want to spend 10 minutes climbing into an increasing headwind for a 30 minute flight.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Maynard
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 419
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:33 am

Re: North Star BT67 put down on lake

Post by Maynard » Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:32 am

Yes the condition levers have a gate....but with the amount of cycles I amigine it has, the hard corner would over time not be pointy. Also I assume the captain shuts down the airplane. This would be a pull force to the left every time, which tiny amounts over and over would make the lever arms not so tight to the right side of its travel. I can totally see how possible this could be and without much effort. Throw in 1am and darkness...
---------- ADS -----------
  
I guess I should write something here.

goingnowherefast
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1548
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:24 am

Re: North Star BT67 put down on lake

Post by goingnowherefast » Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:31 pm

---------- ADS -----------
  

Illya Kuryakin
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1291
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 11:14 pm
Location: The Gulag Archipelago

Re: North Star BT67 put down on lake

Post by Illya Kuryakin » Thu Jun 27, 2019 7:45 pm

shimmydampner wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 12:13 am
Illya Kuryakin wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:25 pm
WOW
The hot air. Some day I'll just land one in a swamp, then tune here to learn how I did.
Illya
You didn't mind all the speculation on the last dual flameout incident. Why've you got your knickers in a twist over this one?
Don't fly a BT67 Shim. How do you always mention my knickers? You’re a strange little man.
Illya
---------- ADS -----------
  
Wish I didn't know now, what I didn't know then.

Illya Kuryakin
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1291
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 11:14 pm
Location: The Gulag Archipelago

Re: North Star BT67 put down on lake

Post by Illya Kuryakin » Thu Jun 27, 2019 7:50 pm

No idea who the crew was (don’t really care) or their background, but, the throttles on a “real” DC3 are in the middle. Props on the left.....just throwing that out there.
Illya
---------- ADS -----------
  
Wish I didn't know now, what I didn't know then.

shimmydampner
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1532
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2004 3:59 pm

Re: North Star BT67 put down on lake

Post by shimmydampner » Thu Jun 27, 2019 8:10 pm

Illya Kuryakin wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 7:45 pm
Don't fly a BT67 Shim. How do you always mention my knickers? You’re a strange little man.
Illya
It's just that I worry about you and how wound up you get. Given your advanced age it can be hazardous to your health. But now I see you only get spun up when it concerns types that you fly.
---------- ADS -----------
  

KingAirlol
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 11
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:48 am

Re: North Star BT67 put down on lake

Post by KingAirlol » Thu Jun 27, 2019 9:12 pm

Just another canuck wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 1:33 pm
Keep in mind could be a rumour only but I heard the PM pulled the condition levers instead of the props. Which when you think about it, is the most reasonable scenario I can think of. Better chance of hitting lotto max on a weekly basis than having true dual engine failures. Fuel contamination seems unlikely to me cause they already flew a leg. That thing will fly just fine on one so... And I'd really like to know what happened to the one on the ice too.
It's the same plane that was on the ice!

They are floating this one off the lake Tomorrow and doing engine swaps at the airport

😳 She'll be back in the air soon
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
PilotDAR
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2931
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:46 pm
Location: Near CNJ4 Orillia, Ontario

Re: North Star BT67 put down on lake

Post by PilotDAR » Thu Jun 27, 2019 11:24 pm

the throttles on a “real” DC3 are in the middle. Props on the left
Which is very nice for "real" DC-3's, and would not be permitted for the Basler. With the Basler updates being approved under FAR Part 25, instead of CAR 4, it is required that the engine control location conform to FAR Part 25 standards - power levers to the left. The Basler power lever arrangement would be the same as every other Part 25, multi engined Part 23, and most CAR 3 multi engined planes, to assure commonality. I'm confident that the pilots of a Turbine powered Basler DC-3 would recall that they are not flying a piston powered DC-3 - There are differences between the two versions of the aircraft beyond power lever position.
---------- ADS -----------
  

digits_
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2180
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:26 am

Re: North Star BT67 put down on lake

Post by digits_ » Fri Jun 28, 2019 9:11 am

KingAirlol wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 9:12 pm
Just another canuck wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 1:33 pm
Keep in mind could be a rumour only but I heard the PM pulled the condition levers instead of the props. Which when you think about it, is the most reasonable scenario I can think of. Better chance of hitting lotto max on a weekly basis than having true dual engine failures. Fuel contamination seems unlikely to me cause they already flew a leg. That thing will fly just fine on one so... And I'd really like to know what happened to the one on the ice too.
It's the same plane that was on the ice!

They are floating this one off the lake Tomorrow and doing engine swaps at the airport

😳 She'll be back in the air soon
This plane is going to become the most expensive DC3 ever!
---------- ADS -----------
  

Illya Kuryakin
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1291
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 11:14 pm
Location: The Gulag Archipelago

Re: North Star BT67 put down on lake

Post by Illya Kuryakin » Fri Jun 28, 2019 3:48 pm

PilotDAR wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 11:24 pm
the throttles on a “real” DC3 are in the middle. Props on the left
Which is very nice for "real" DC-3's, and would not be permitted for the Basler. With the Basler updates being approved under FAR Part 25, instead of CAR 4, it is required that the engine control location conform to FAR Part 25 standards - power levers to the left. The Basler power lever arrangement would be the same as every other Part 25, multi engined Part 23, and most CAR 3 multi engined planes, to assure commonality. I'm confident that the pilots of a Turbine powered Basler DC-3 would recall that they are not flying a piston powered DC-3 - There are differences between the two versions of the aircraft beyond power lever position.
I just tossed that out there for interest. Beech 18, Beech Travel Airs, and early Barons also had throttles centre. Probably many more. Beavers? Otters? Methinks so.
Illya
---------- ADS -----------
  
Wish I didn't know now, what I didn't know then.

valleyboy
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 344
Joined: Tue May 03, 2016 4:05 am

Re: North Star BT67 put down on lake

Post by valleyboy » Fri Jun 28, 2019 4:47 pm

And like most knobs they had their approved shape, colour and length and also contoured so one's hand will not slip off :smt040
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
iflyforpie
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 7737
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 12:25 pm
Location: Winterfell...

Re: North Star BT67 put down on lake

Post by iflyforpie » Fri Jun 28, 2019 10:00 pm

shimmydampner wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 12:13 am
Illya Kuryakin wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:25 pm
WOW
The hot air. Some day I'll just land one in a swamp, then tune here to learn how I did.
Illya
You didn't mind all the speculation on the last dual flameout incident. Why've you got your knickers in a twist over this one?
Exactly.

Here, I’ll help you out.
Ran out of petrol and haven’t got the nads to admit.....oh wait, TSB hasn’t had their say. Check the uplift......,only ONE way I know of to have two PT6’s calve at the same time. Ya gots to feed ‘em.
Cheers
Illya
---------- ADS -----------
  
Geez did I say that....? Or just think it....?

supersport
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 3
Joined: Sat May 18, 2013 6:21 am

Re: North Star BT67 put down on lake

Post by supersport » Wed Jul 03, 2019 6:35 pm

Has anyone seen if they have gotten the plane out yet?
---------- ADS -----------
  

A321
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 53
Joined: Sat May 19, 2007 11:07 am

Re: North Star BT67 put down on lake

Post by A321 » Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:56 pm

Yellow Submarine Surfacing.png
Yellow Submarine Surfacing.png (1.14 MiB) Viewed 783 times
---------- ADS -----------
  

digits_
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2180
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:26 am

Re: North Star BT67 put down on lake

Post by digits_ » Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:12 pm

Leave those floats on and get an STC, would be mighty cool!
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
telex
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 362
Joined: Sun Feb 07, 2016 9:05 pm

Re: North Star BT67 put down on lake

Post by telex » Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:20 pm

Image
---------- ADS -----------
  

Post Reply

Return to “Accidents, Incidents & Overdue Aircraft”