King Air crash in US

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jakeandelwood
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King Air crash in US

Post by jakeandelwood »

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porcsord
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Re: King Air crash in US

Post by porcsord »

In the Wichita crash, the NTSB concluded that the pilot had likely identified the wrong engine as having failed and applied the wrong rudder, which greatly worsened the roll, resulting in the crash into the occupied FlightSafety building.
And applied the wrong rudder... think about that for a minute. The aircraft yaws and and starts banking the left, amd buddy applies left rudder?

This is why I hate flying on most international carriers. As it turns out, lack of experience or airmanship kills people.
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iflyforpie
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Re: King Air crash in US

Post by iflyforpie »

Maybe they need to make the “brick” bigger on the PFD?

But seriously, you’ve also got rudder boost pushing the rudder in the correct direction. And surely when a wing feels like it’s going to drop you pick it up with rudder, right?
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Geez did I say that....? Or just think it....?
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Re: King Air crash in US

Post by co-joe »

Step on the bug?
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C.W.E.
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Re: King Air crash in US

Post by C.W.E. »

How do you control or prevent yaw?
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Illya Kuryakin
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Re: King Air crash in US

Post by Illya Kuryakin »

porcsord wrote: Tue Jul 02, 2019 5:39 pm
In the Wichita crash, the NTSB concluded that the pilot had likely identified the wrong engine as having failed and applied the wrong rudder, which greatly worsened the roll, resulting in the crash into the occupied FlightSafety building.
And applied the wrong rudder... think about that for a minute. The aircraft yaws and and starts banking the left, amd buddy applies left rudder?

This is why I hate flying on most international carriers. As it turns out, lack of experience or airmanship kills people.
One only needs to look back to the Air France Swim Team. A "qualified" crew on a Flag Carrier couldn't even recognize a stall.
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Outlaw58
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Re: King Air crash in US

Post by Outlaw58 »

Such little respect for those who wrote and keep writing the books with their blood....


Whenever we talk about a pilot who has been killed in a flying accident, we should all keep one thing in mind. He called upon the sum of all his knowledge and made a judgment. He believed in it so strongly that he knowingly bet his life on it. That his judgment was faulty is a tragedy, not stupidity. Every instructor, supervisor, and contemporary who ever spoke to him had an opportunity to influence his judgment, so a little bit of all of us goes with every pilot we lose.

— author unknown, help please!

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rookiepilot
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Re: King Air crash in US

Post by rookiepilot »

Outlaw58 wrote: Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:43 am Such little respect for those who wrote and keep writing the books with their blood....

Whenever we talk about a pilot who has been killed in a flying accident, we should all keep one thing in mind. He called upon the sum of all his knowledge and made a judgment. He believed in it so strongly that he knowingly bet his life on it. That his judgment was faulty is a tragedy, not stupidity. Every instructor, supervisor, and contemporary who ever spoke to him had an opportunity to influence his judgment, so a little bit of all of us goes with every pilot we lose.
Endorse.
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cncpc
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Re: King Air crash in US

Post by cncpc »

Outlaw58 wrote: Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:43 am Such little respect for those who wrote and keep writing the books with their blood....
This is bullshit.

The book is written in the blood of passengers.
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pelmet
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Re: King Air crash in US

Post by pelmet »

cncpc wrote: Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:39 pm
Outlaw58 wrote: Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:43 am Such little respect for those who wrote and keep writing the books with their blood....
This is bullshit.

The book is written in the blood of passengers.
Well ain’t that the truth. And something that many of us are determined to change, despite any resistance from those more interested in protecting reputation.
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jakeandelwood
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Re: King Air crash in US

Post by jakeandelwood »

cncpc wrote: Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:39 pm
Outlaw58 wrote: Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:43 am Such little respect for those who wrote and keep writing the books with their blood....
This is bullshit.

The book is written in the blood of passengers.
Yes, the passengers, and that 1st officer who speaks up when something isn't right but the captain is too arrogant and stubborn to listen and God forbid that captain lower himself and maybe take the 1st officers advice.
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Re: King Air crash in US

Post by C.W.E. »

Outlaw58 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:43 am
Such little respect for those who wrote and keep writing the books with their blood....
This is bullshit.
It is worse than bullshit.

Judging by the comments by the NTSB it is a comment made by someone who does not have a very good understanding of flying period.

Or just didn't bother reading the whole story about it.
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Re: King Air crash in US

Post by rookiepilot »

Outlaw58 wrote: Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:43 am
Every instructor, supervisor, and contemporary who ever spoke to him had an opportunity to influence his judgment,
Not true .?

Your feelings on the current state of flight instruction have changed?
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Re: King Air crash in US

Post by oldtimer »

I have many hours in both the Beech King Air 200, the B200 and the 350, both as a pilot, training pilot, check pilot and groundschool instructor and I have seen this scene so often it really makes me wonder. There is a major misconception about the rudder boost system installed in the Beech King Air. I have heard the expression so often "feet flat on the floor because rudder boost will control adverse yaw in case of an engine failure."
Wrong, Wrong, Wrong.
Rudder boost is there because the force required to control adverse Yaw exceeds 75 pounds of force, the maximum allowed during certification.
During certification,the airplane has to demonstrate it can be directionally controllable with rudder alone with the full power on the operating engine, the failed engine propeller in full fine and the airplane is loaded to the maximum allowable aft c of g.
I have seen so many pilots using the rudder pedals simply as a foot rest. I have had pilots react to a simulated power failure (engine chop) by allowing adverse yaw roll the airplane and the pilot reacts by rolling in aileron and leaning so far over that they almost push me out of my seat as they try to pick up the low wing with aileron control and little or no rudder input. I had a King Air 350 down to 500 fpm climb with severe cross controls and the ball at full scale deflection. Bring the airplane back to coordinated flight and the rate of climb settled in to a 1500 fpm rate. And all this was with a reasonable high time pilot sitting in the captains chair.
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Re: King Air crash in US

Post by Illya Kuryakin »

oldtimer wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:30 am I have many hours in both the Beech King Air 200, the B200 and the 350, both as a pilot, training pilot, check pilot and groundschool instructor and I have seen this scene so often it really makes me wonder. There is a major misconception about the rudder boost system installed in the Beech King Air. I have heard the expression so often "feet flat on the floor because rudder boost will control adverse yaw in case of an engine failure."
Wrong, Wrong, Wrong.
Rudder boost is there because the force required to control adverse Yaw exceeds 75 pounds of force, the maximum allowed during certification.
During certification,the airplane has to demonstrate it can be directionally controllable with rudder alone with the full power on the operating engine, the failed engine propeller in full fine and the airplane is loaded to the maximum allowable aft c of g.
I have seen so many pilots using the rudder pedals simply as a foot rest. I have had pilots react to a simulated power failure (engine chop) by allowing adverse yaw roll the airplane and the pilot reacts by rolling in aileron and leaning so far over that they almost push me out of my seat as they try to pick up the low wing with aileron control and little or no rudder input. I had a King Air 350 down to 500 fpm climb with severe cross controls and the ball at full scale deflection. Bring the airplane back to coordinated flight and the rate of climb settled in to a 1500 fpm rate. And all this was with a reasonable high time pilot sitting in the captains chair.
Required reading.
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Old fella
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Re: King Air crash in US

Post by Old fella »

oldtimer wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:30 am I have many hours in both the Beech King Air 200, the B200 and the 350, both as a pilot, training pilot, check pilot and groundschool instructor and I have seen this scene so often it really makes me wonder. There is a major misconception about the rudder boost system installed in the Beech King Air. I have heard the expression so often "feet flat on the floor because rudder boost will control adverse yaw in case of an engine failure."
Wrong, Wrong, Wrong.
Rudder boost is there because the force required to control adverse Yaw exceeds 75 pounds of force, the maximum allowed during certification.
During certification,the airplane has to demonstrate it can be directionally controllable with rudder alone with the full power on the operating engine, the failed engine propeller in full fine and the airplane is loaded to the maximum allowable aft c of g.
I have seen so many pilots using the rudder pedals simply as a foot rest. I have had pilots react to a simulated power failure (engine chop) by allowing adverse yaw roll the airplane and the pilot reacts by rolling in aileron and leaning so far over that they almost push me out of my seat as they try to pick up the low wing with aileron control and little or no rudder input. I had a King Air 350 down to 500 fpm climb with severe cross controls and the ball at full scale deflection. Bring the airplane back to coordinated flight and the rate of climb settled in to a 1500 fpm rate. And all this was with a reasonable high time pilot sitting in the captains chair.
Indeed. Have similar background sans the 350, many years back Flight Safety sim training Toledo Ohio rudder boost/auto feather was just to give you a hint what side quit, healthy rudder input and coordinated flight is essential to get a decent rate on the beast. That was demonstrated to me several times and towards the end I caught on.
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Re: King Air crash in US

Post by C.W.E. »

Your feelings on the current state of flight instruction have changed?
My feelings on the current state of flight instruction has not changed.

This accident from what we know baring a sudden medical crisis the pilot flying that airplane was not capable of basic airplane handling skills flying a certified aircraft.

If basic flying skills are that lacking it stands to logic that the training and certification of the pilot was substandard at best.
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Re: King Air crash in US

Post by rookiepilot »

C.W.E. wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2019 6:25 pm
Your feelings on the current state of flight instruction have changed?
My feelings on the current state of flight instruction has not changed.

This accident from what we know baring a sudden medical crisis the pilot flying that airplane was not capable of basic airplane handling skills flying a certified aircraft.

If basic flying skills are that lacking it stands to logic that the training and certification of the pilot was substandard at best.
Why aren't the school that trained this pilot, and the authority that signed off, held directly responsible for this accident then?
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Re: King Air crash in US

Post by Donald »

rookiepilot wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:46 pm
C.W.E. wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2019 6:25 pm
Your feelings on the current state of flight instruction have changed?
My feelings on the current state of flight instruction has not changed.

This accident from what we know baring a sudden medical crisis the pilot flying that airplane was not capable of basic airplane handling skills flying a certified aircraft.

If basic flying skills are that lacking it stands to logic that the training and certification of the pilot was substandard at best.
Why aren't the school that trained this pilot, and the authority that signed off, held directly responsible for this accident then?
Is that what happens when a recent graduate of Young Driver's crashes a car and kills someone?
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iflyforpie
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Re: King Air crash in US

Post by iflyforpie »

I’ll say it before and I’ll say it again.

People get weird ideas in aviation that weren’t covered in their training.

People do things in airplanes that make absolutely no sense.

This isn’t anything new, and in fact, it’s happening at a rate far less than it did in the past with far fewer “my way or the highway” captains and longer and more comprehensive training.

It may be, but unlikely, that this guy thought he was better than his instructor and didn’t care about inputting the correct rudder.

It may be, more likely, that in the heat of the moment he applied the wrong rudder.

How is this the school’s fault? You can try to blame parents for a crappy upbringing, but in the end it’s your own choices that dictate where you wind up. Pull the syllabus, training records, and logbooks and more than likely you’ll see everything is as it should be, and the likelihood of an instructor not teaching rudder application or calling out deviations during training approaches nil.

Also... the fact that we are using accidents from ten years ago as Illya mentioned to slag the skills of modern pilots practically defines irony.
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Geez did I say that....? Or just think it....?
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