Encore wrinkles a Dash-8

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plausiblyannonymous
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Re: Encore wrinkles a Dash-8

Post by plausiblyannonymous »

goingnowherefast wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 5:57 am
plausiblyannonymous wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 6:36 pm
That report is garbage. They imply that the higher speed caused the captain to push the nose down at low altitude.

They completely ignore the fact that the FO (PM) was likely on the last pairing of his line indoc and the captain would have had his hands full.

Shit happens. The passengers and crew are fine and the airplane still flies like any other Q400 out there.
Captain has some experience, but not a whole lot in the left seat. With 1700 on type, the upgrade probably wasn't all that long ago. Maybe a year?
If you look at the Matrix, it's completely possible that he has a lot of other 705 time. It's also possible that he has a lot of classic Dash 8 experience, but TC is too inept to understand that they are the same type.
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Capt. Underpants
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Re: Encore wrinkles a Dash-8

Post by Capt. Underpants »

plausiblyannonymous wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 9:03 am

If you look at the Matrix, it's completely possible that he has a lot of other 705 time. It's also possible that he has a lot of classic Dash 8 experience, but TC is too inept to understand that they are the same type.
What does TC have to do with it? The report was written by the TSB. :roll:
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Re: Encore wrinkles a Dash-8

Post by plausiblyannonymous »

Capt. Underpants wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:30 am
plausiblyannonymous wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 9:03 am

If you look at the Matrix, it's completely possible that he has a lot of other 705 time. It's also possible that he has a lot of classic Dash 8 experience, but TC is too inept to understand that they are the same type.
What does TC have to do with it? The report was written by the TSB. :roll:
Shit, you're right.

I had seen it on the TC website, but failed to read that it was from the TSB.

I am quite disappointed with the TC report as it fails to acknowledge the importance of some key points. They put a lot of emphasis on the speed that the aircraft touched down at, but failed to point out that the aircraft can be landed at that speed. The captain was a training captain (or must've been), and the first officer (at 28 hours on type) would have been on their line indoc. The extra stress for both involved during line indoc can very well have been a contributing factor, yet it got no mention.
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pelmet
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Re: Encore wrinkles a Dash-8

Post by pelmet »

Folks, the bottom line, is.....making a full nose down pitch input in the flare/bounce is a seriously bad move almost guaranteed to damage most aircraft like this. I haven't flown the Dash-8-400 but making a guess about it, it seems kind of jetlike for the landing(could be wrong). If you bounce, you don't push or pull any significant amount. You hold your pitch attitude during the bounce and decide if your bounce is low enough to continue the landing or go-around. I suppose the same could be said for many turboprops as well.

There may be an increased hesitation to go-around when you choose to land with a thunderstorm approaching which has already reached the far end of the airport and could very well be having effects well ahead of it. Which is why you may want to divert in such a situation. At my carrier, the official minimum distance for landing at an airport with a thunderstorm approaching is 3 miles(says should not be closer as opposed to shall not be closer). It is quite possible that the position of the thunderstorm had an influence(possibly subconsciously) on the reactive decision to apply full nose down input.

As for the higher than normal speed at touchdown, perhaps that makes it more likely to become airborne again after touching down and is the reason why it is mentioned in the report and is not what the manuals recommend.
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Re: Encore wrinkles a Dash-8

Post by tsgas »

pelmet wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 9:28 am
Folks, the bottom line, is.....making a full nose down pitch input in the flare/bounce is a seriously bad move almost guaranteed to damage most aircraft like this. I haven't flown the Dash-8-400 but making a guess about it, it seems kind of jetlike for the landing(could be wrong). If you bounce, you don't push or pull any significant amount. You hold your pitch attitude during the bounce and decide if your bounce is low enough to continue the landing or go-around. I suppose the same could be said for many turboprops as well.

There may be an increased hesitation to go-around when you choose to land with a thunderstorm approaching which has already reached the far end of the airport and could very well be having effects well ahead of it. Which is why you may want to divert in such a situation. At my carrier, the official minimum distance for landing at an airport with a thunderstorm approaching is 3 miles(says should not be closer as opposed to shall not be closer). It is quite possible that the position of the thunderstorm had an influence(possibly subconsciously) on the reactive decision to apply full nose down input.

As for the higher than normal speed at touchdown, perhaps that makes it more likely to become airborne again after touching down and is the reason why it is mentioned in the report and is not what the manuals recommend.
Very well said.
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Re: Encore wrinkles a Dash-8

Post by Canoehead »

Poor decision making on a couple of points, and poor aircraft operation and technique.

A Q400 Captain should know better.

As for the report; not impressed (nor surprised) with the TSB. There's a glowing error that I see in it right away (small, but it is there) and it brings the rest of the report's credibility into question. I also think there is a significant amount of information not included here that should be.

TSB final reports are frustrating to read. There's no point anymore.
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Re: Encore wrinkles a Dash-8

Post by plausiblyannonymous »

Canoehead wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 9:56 pm
Poor decision making on a couple of points, and poor aircraft operation and technique.

A Q400 Captain should know better.

As for the report; not impressed (nor surprised) with the TSB. There's a glowing error that I see in it right away (small, but it is there) and it brings the rest of the report's credibility into question. I also think there is a significant amount of information not included here that should be.

TSB final reports are frustrating to read. There's no point anymore.
It's possible that this was just the public version of the report.
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Re: Encore wrinkles a Dash-8

Post by Canoehead »

plausiblyannonymous wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 10:07 pm
It's possible that this was just the public version of the report.
There is only a public report in the end.

Draft goes to the stakeholders so they can have their lawyers rip it apart, and then after everyone threatens everyone, they agree on the fluff at the end like we see here. Granted, this is a class 4 investigation, so they don't have the same meat as a class 3 (or higher). I guess almost writing off a $30M airplane full of people doesn't meet class 3 investigative requirements. That said, there's a few facts that could have been revealed that would have made for some good learning/enhancing of safety in my opinion (part of their mandate). Regardless, there's one factual error that any Q400 driver should see glowing away, and while it may seem like semantics, it speaks to the credibility of other things in TSB reports.

Bush league reporting.
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Re: Encore wrinkles a Dash-8

Post by lostaviator »

The 20 knots had nothing to do with this (though, I don't agree with it being added in the first place). That type of speed is added on a regular basis in the winter (icing conditions). It is probably more connected to the fact that they spend all of initial ground school terrifying pilots over the threat of a tail strike, so everyone is in the habit of shoving the throttles up in the flair.
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Re: Encore wrinkles a Dash-8

Post by daedalusx »

lostaviator wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 8:34 am
The 20 knots had nothing to do with this (though, I don't agree with it being added in the first place). That type of speed is added on a regular basis in the winter (icing conditions). It is probably more connected to the fact that they spend all of initial ground school terrifying pilots over the threat of a tail strike, so everyone is in the habit of shoving the throttles up in the flair.
Bingo.
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Re: Encore wrinkles a Dash-8

Post by daedalusx »

One can certainly notice the ressemblance with the Jazz YTZ >5.7g landing.
Jazz standard operating procedures (SOPs) for stable approaches allow for a deviation of −5 to +10 knots from the planned approach speed once the aircraft is below 500 feet above ground level (AGL) on approach. However, the speed of the occurrence aircraft’s approach varied from 119 to 141 knots. Because the speed deviations resulted from momentary wind gusts, the flight crew considered the approach to be stable.

Once the aircraft was below 100 feet AGL on approach, the following happened in rapid succession:

- The aircraft encountered momentary performance-degrading wind shear as a result of a wind gust, causing its airspeed to decrease.

- The pilot flying advanced the power levers.

- The aircraft touched down.

Almost immediately after touchdown, the following happened in rapid succession:

- The main landing gear began to compress.

- The engine torque, in response to the power lever advancement, increased to a maximum of 42.5% and 40% on the left and right engines, respectively.

- The aircraft encountered a performance-enhancing wind shear, which caused the airspeed to increase.

- The power levers were retarded through the flight idle gate position to the propeller discing detent position.

- The momentary increase in torque and airspeed caused the aircraft to become airborne again, up to 4.5 feet above the runway, for about 2.75 seconds.

While the aircraft was airborne, after the first touchdown, the following happened in rapid succession:

- The propeller blade angles moved through the ground-idle range into the disc position,6 which caused a significant loss of lift.

- The performance-enhancing wind shear decreased, and the combined reduction in lift resulted in the aircraft firmly contacting the runway.
I know the TSB doesn’t mention it but I feel like I remember something on this incident about how the FO reported in the first bounce the WOW switch may have activated the spoilers for a very short period while it was airborne which decreased the lift even more.
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Re: Encore wrinkles a Dash-8

Post by Canoehead »

FKWE had another misadventure in Terrace last night...
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Re: Encore wrinkles a Dash-8

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Re: Encore wrinkles a Dash-8

Post by iflyforpie »

Ouch.

I guess I shouldn’t have complained about the 11:00 Encore taking so long on the approach into Terrace yesterday.

It’s almost always a 30 knot or more tailwind on the ILS even when surface winds are reporting light, weather was 100-200 above minimums, and the runway was more than likely contaminated. Easy to wind up a bit high and a bit fast.
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Re: Encore wrinkles a Dash-8

Post by Canoehead »

What are general airport/runway conditions like up there? The online picture I've seen has some pretty high looking snowbanks in the background. I'm not familiar with Terrace, but my first thought was of Flightexec putting a Cheyenne through a windrow at the intersection in Timmins many years ago.
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DH82EH
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Re: Encore wrinkles a Dash-8

Post by DH82EH »

I think that we are going to eventually find out, that this failure was related to the heavy landing, that the report was about.
Q-400 nose landing gear are never supposed to retract to the rear! :shock:
In the history of Q-400 NLG failures, there has always proven to be factors that are other than design related.
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Re: Encore wrinkles a Dash-8

Post by Capt. Underpants »

DH82EH wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:47 am
I think that we are going to eventually find out, that this failure was related to the heavy landing, that the report was about.
That’s a pretty serious indictment of the people who did the repair work, and with zero evidence to back it up. Would you want that said about your work? Sheesh.
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Re: Encore wrinkles a Dash-8

Post by iflyforpie »

Canoehead wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 7:16 am
What are general airport/runway conditions like up there? The online picture I've seen has some pretty high looking snowbanks in the background. I'm not familiar with Terrace, but my first thought was of Flightexec putting a Cheyenne through a windrow at the intersection in Timmins many years ago.
Really good considering what they have to work with. Coastal climate where an inch of rain turns into a foot of wet snow. Windrows on the edges are very high making taxiing difficult for low wings but none across any runways or taxiways. Runway 03-21 is closed for the winter.

But in IFR conditions only one aircraft can be between the runway and 12,000 feet so they can do a few turns between but can’t close the runway for 30 minutes to completely clear it off unless there is a lull in traffic. We departed in slush.
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Re: Encore wrinkles a Dash-8

Post by JBI »

Canoehead wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 8:09 am

Draft goes to the stakeholders so they can have their lawyers rip it apart, and then after everyone threatens everyone, they agree on the fluff at the end like we see here.
I haven't been involved in "ripping apart" any TSB reports for quite a few years but I can tell you that the reality is much more civil and less US television legal drama. After the stakeholders provide input to the draft report, separate investigators at the TSB not involved in the initial report review ALL the suggestions and respond. Even when some of the findings didn't support my clients, I was impressed with the TSB investigation and reporting process.

The TSB report is not admissible in any subsequent property damage or personal injury lawsuits.
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Re: Encore wrinkles a Dash-8

Post by atc_is_god »

Rooster69 wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:24 pm
Victory wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 10:11 am
I wonder if ground workers would walk to their car in the parking lot at the end of their shift and go home or stay inside where it's safe if there's thunderstorms in the area.

Really? Are you aware that during a red alert , ramp personnel are not allowed to be on the ramp? I wouldn’t be walking around on a tarmac during thunderstorm activity. I wouldn’t be walking through a parking lot either.
Airport thunderstorm procedures are ridiculous and YYZ is the worst of them all. Millions of people around the globe are active in the vicinity of thunderstorms every single day without incident. Not to mention that airports are littered with antennas and other structures that would take the strike first. That's basic physics. :roll:
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Re: Encore wrinkles a Dash-8

Post by mbav8r »

atc_is_god wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 12:32 pm
Rooster69 wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:24 pm
Victory wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 10:11 am
I wonder if ground workers would walk to their car in the parking lot at the end of their shift and go home or stay inside where it's safe if there's thunderstorms in the area.

Really? Are you aware that during a red alert , ramp personnel are not allowed to be on the ramp? I wouldn’t be walking around on a tarmac during thunderstorm activity. I wouldn’t be walking through a parking lot either.
Airport thunderstorm procedures are ridiculous and YYZ is the worst of them all. Millions of people around the globe are active in the vicinity of thunderstorms every single day without incident. Not to mention that airports are littered with antennas and other structures that would take the strike first. That's basic physics. :roll:
And wet ramps! Also, people who are outside during thunderstorms are the ones who COULD be struck, seriously!
I’d like to call you an idiot but I won’t because I think it’s obvious!
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Re: Encore wrinkles a Dash-8

Post by Capt. Underpants »

atc_is_god wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 12:32 pm
Airport thunderstorm procedures are ridiculous and YYZ is the worst of them all. Millions of people around the globe are active in the vicinity of thunderstorms every single day without incident. Not to mention that airports are littered with antennas and other structures that would take the strike first. That's basic physics. :roll:
You first, Sparky. :roll:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSUMT8lFik8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrRzQbNMfW4
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Re: Encore wrinkles a Dash-8

Post by Rooster69 »

atc_is_god wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 12:32 pm
Rooster69 wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:24 pm
Victory wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 10:11 am
I wonder if ground workers would walk to their car in the parking lot at the end of their shift and go home or stay inside where it's safe if there's thunderstorms in the area.

Really? Are you aware that during a red alert , ramp personnel are not allowed to be on the ramp? I wouldn’t be walking around on a tarmac during thunderstorm activity. I wouldn’t be walking through a parking lot either.
Airport thunderstorm procedures are ridiculous and YYZ is the worst of them all. Millions of people around the globe are active in the vicinity of thunderstorms every single day without incident. Not to mention that airports are littered with antennas and other structures that would take the strike first. That's basic physics. :roll:

Basic physics eh? So physics can exactly predict where lightning will strike? Why don’t publish that in a physics journal?


Please, oh please, tell me when you plan on working on ANY ramp during a thunderstorm, I will gladly watch you from the inside of any building. You might not, nay, probably not get struck, but I’ll be there filming. If you do get struck, you will probably win the year’s Darwin Award.
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Re: Encore wrinkles a Dash-8

Post by GyvAir »

I've seen lightning strike the ramp area of an airport just once. Physics chose a spot in the vicinity of a sewer grate 200 feet from any above ground features over all the assorted aircraft, buildings, antennas, light standards, etc. surrounding it.
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Re: Encore wrinkles a Dash-8

Post by '97 Tercel »

"Encore wrinkles a Dash-8"
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