Air Transat runway incursion

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golden hawk
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Air Transat runway incursion

Post by golden hawk »

http://avherald.com/h?article=4cbf4f75&opt=0
Incident: Transat B738 at Vancouver on Jul 11th 2019, runway incursion

By Simon Hradecky, created Saturday, Aug 24th 2019 19:36Z, last updated Saturday, Aug 24th 2019 19:36Z
An Air Transat Boeing 737-800, registration C-GTQB performing flight TS-772 from Vancouver,BC to Montreal,QC (Canada) with 178 passengers and 6 crew, was taxiing along taxiway L for departure from Vancouver's runway 08R. The crew contacted tower and was instructed to hold short of runway 08R, however, went past the hold short line and stopped about 40 meters past the line.

The Canadian TSB reported: "Post incident examination found that there is a discrepancy in the location of the hold short line for runway 08R at Lima on the LIDO and Canada Air Pilot taxi chart compared to the physical location at the airport. TSC772 was referencing the LIDO taxi chart at the time of the occurrence and expected the hold short line to be closer to the runway. CYVR has input the issue into their SMS for review."

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DanWEC
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Re: Air Transat runway incursion

Post by DanWEC »

There is indeed a discrepancy, and if you want you can see it on google earth.
The chart shows the line past the corner of L, perpendicular to the edge of 8R. The actual line is a good bit before, and cuts across the corner on an angle.

Normally, it would be a glaring error to go past a hold short line, and a chart disagreement showing a line further down wouldn't make a difference if it was a straightaway. But I see the risk of how this error could happen here: Things like corners end up being mental cues, and they expected to do stuff after, not before.
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pelmet
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Re: Air Transat runway incursion

Post by pelmet »

Just shows that you can’t trust the taxi charts to be exactly correct and have to use the view out the window as the primary reference for hold short lines, etc

I have seen other incorrect stuff such as the terminal gate on the diagram in the wrong location.

I suppose the ground charts should be thought of as a reference only and then take what you actually get.
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J31
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Re: Air Transat runway incursion

Post by J31 »

I worked with LIDO charts for several years, what a disaster! There were errors on almost every chart, worldwide.

So happy to go back to Jep.

Having said that the hold line on YVR runway 08R is really hard to miss. :?
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TeePeeCreeper
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Re: Air Transat runway incursion

Post by TeePeeCreeper »

DanWEC wrote: Tue Aug 27, 2019 6:16 pm There is indeed a discrepancy, and if you want you can see it on google earth.
The chart shows the line past the corner of L, perpendicular to the edge of 8R. The actual line is a good bit before, and cuts across the corner on an angle.

Normally, it would be a glaring error to go past a hold short line, and a chart disagreement showing a line further down wouldn't make a difference if it was a straightaway. But I see the risk of how this error could happen here: Things like corners end up being mental cues, and they expected to do stuff after, not before.
Agreed. Shit happens.

Don’t trust charts, verify the damn taxi clearance for Fox’s sake!

Regards,
TPC

(Better signage/eliminating so called “hot spots” are a “stop gap” to a design fault which could have been prevented/anticipated in advance)
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broken_slinky
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Re: Air Transat runway incursion

Post by broken_slinky »

Shouldn't a pilot hold short of the physical hold short line whether a chart is correct or not? Seems like a simple look out the window would have avoided this one.
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Re: Air Transat runway incursion

Post by ToolShed »

Look out window. Lol
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bald seagull
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Re: Air Transat runway incursion

Post by bald seagull »

broken_slinky wrote: Wed Aug 28, 2019 3:58 am Shouldn't a pilot hold short of the physical hold short line whether a chart is correct or not? Seems like a simple look out the window would have avoided this one.
There's no magenta line out the window. :?
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pelmet
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Re: Air Transat runway incursion

Post by pelmet »

As a note, the Jepp charts do not show hold short lines at all for YVR. They only show stop bars for the low vis runways(which probably align with the hold short lines). But runway 31-13 is not a low vis runway and no hold short lines are on the chart.

In the end, the likely reason for this happening was distraction. Beware of distraction while taxiing. A few seconds of looking away while on a nice long straight-away may be reasonable in good weather during the day, otherwise, consider stopping or transferring control, if possible.
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Capt. Underpants
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Re: Air Transat runway incursion

Post by Capt. Underpants »

Going past any hold short line without a clearance is bad, but putting that line in the middle of a corner is worse.
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Glasnost
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Re: Air Transat runway incursion

Post by Glasnost »

HAHAHAHAHAHA !!!! :lol:

Trust it to pilots to miss a four line thick hold short line, wag wigs, runway signs, and big red runway marks on the taxiway !!

Maybe pilots need to go through an AVOP course or grade 3 to learn how to read. ??
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Eric Janson
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Re: Air Transat runway incursion

Post by Eric Janson »

pelmet wrote: Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:05 pm As a note, the Jepp charts do not show hold short lines at all for YVR. They only show stop bars for the low vis runways(which probably align with the hold short lines). But runway 31-13 is not a low vis runway and no hold short lines are on the chart.
Just checked 10-9 and the both the normal and CatII/III holding points are shown.
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pelmet
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Re: Air Transat runway incursion

Post by pelmet »

Eric Janson wrote: Fri Aug 30, 2019 6:00 pm
pelmet wrote: Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:05 pm As a note, the Jepp charts do not show hold short lines at all for YVR. They only show stop bars for the low vis runways(which probably align with the hold short lines). But runway 31-13 is not a low vis runway and no hold short lines are on the chart.
Just checked 10-9 and the both the normal and CatII/III holding points are shown.
Your 10-9 is different than my 10-9. Mine only shows hold short stop bars(a line with a circle at each end) for the parallel runways with a legend just to the right of the com boxes at the top of the page stating ‘stop bar’ for that particular symbol. I do see a single CAT II holding point on taxiway A.
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16SidedOffice
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Re: Air Transat runway incursion

Post by 16SidedOffice »

Eric Janson wrote: Fri Aug 30, 2019 6:00 pm Just checked 10-9 and the both the normal and CatII/III holding points are shown.
08R at Lima only has one hold line which has been in the same place for about 4 years and is only about 50-60 feet further back than the previous one. Alpha, on the other side of the 08R is the only place at YVR that has separate Cat II/III and runway hold lines.
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pelmet
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Re: Air Transat runway incursion

Post by pelmet »

pelmet wrote: Sat Aug 31, 2019 7:07 am
Eric Janson wrote: Fri Aug 30, 2019 6:00 pm
pelmet wrote: Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:05 pm As a note, the Jepp charts do not show hold short lines at all for YVR. They only show stop bars for the low vis runways(which probably align with the hold short lines). But runway 31-13 is not a low vis runway and no hold short lines are on the chart.
Just checked 10-9 and the both the normal and CatII/III holding points are shown.
Your 10-9 is different than my 10-9. Mine only shows hold short stop bars(a line with a circle at each end) for the parallel runways with a legend just to the right of the com boxes at the top of the page stating ‘stop bar’ for that particular symbol. I do see a single CAT II holding point on taxiway A.
Jeppesen FD Pro also has an AMM(Airport Moving Map) function. When I select AMM, it shows all the hold short lines. In fact, if one zooms in, it shows these lines in great detail with double solid/double dashed lines along with all taxi lines. Impressive.

A check of Google Earth shows the Jepp chart hold short markings to be in the correct location for 08R.
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