Cherokee Six missing near Kingston?

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PilotDAR
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Re: Cherokee Six missing near Kingston?

Post by PilotDAR »

Not sure if that applies to this case, or if the pilot just didn't bother getting any weather briefing (whether from an FIC, or self-briefing from the GFA).
My mind extends to thinking that the unfortunate pilot just failed to resist other factors pressing him to fly. He seems to have been a diligent, caring pilot form the information made public - the kind of pilot I'd consider lending a plane to. Perhaps he had the relevant weather information, but just hoped it was not that bad, and perhaps applied the "southern" perspective, on northern winter weather.

I think that the message here is to have the confidence in your skills of judgement to say "we'll fly later". Pilots should remind themselves that the disappointment of saying "we're not flying now" to a plane full of passengers is still okay, and part of piloting responsibility.
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digits_
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Re: Cherokee Six missing near Kingston?

Post by digits_ »

CpnCrunch wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:50 am
geneticistx wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:28 am
FIC provides free weather briefings.

As i have read in here before...the pilot used every skill, training and experience to prevent the aircraft from losing control and hitting terrain.
There's an eye opening article in this month's COPA magazine. A FIC briefer recounted 3 instances of cases where he advised the pilots not to proceed, but they did so anyway and died. The third time it happened, he remembered the previous two fatal accidents, and tried to persuade the pilot to delay the journey, but he didn't and died.

Unfortunately some people just can't be helped. Not sure if that applies to this case, or if the pilot just didn't bother getting any weather briefing (whether from an FIC, or self-briefing from the GFA).
Some anecdotal evidence to the contrary....

I was ferrying a small VFR only single engine piston with a very limited fuel range. I was in an area with limited weather report station, like you would find on most canadian flights that take you more than 100 NM away from the US border. Anyway, weather forecast didn't look good for my next leg. There was a danger of low visilibity being forecasted at my destination airport due to fog. I called the FIC to get an updated briefing. The lady at the phone told me that I could probably make it if I left RIGHT NOW. I asked for more information on where the fog was coming from, where the bad weather was located etc. At the end of the phone conversation I told her I wanted to cancel my flight plan. She asked me, verbatim, "Are you sure? If you leave right now you can make it". I told her I wasn't going. I could detect a sigh in her voice as she cancelled my flight plan.

The next day, the weather cleared up and I proceeded to my next destination. I landed and started chatting with some local people on the airport. They told me how the weather the day before was terrible. I checked historical METAR information, and they were right. If I had left on that flight, I would not have made it to the destination and would have been right in it. I might not have made it to any other airport. Best case scenario I would have been able to crash land the plane in some remote area. Not nice.

If I would have been in this situation at the beginning of my career, I might not have cancelled after that phone call. I might have left, and I might have ended up in some newspaper.
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rookiepilot
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Re: Cherokee Six missing near Kingston?

Post by rookiepilot »

Some FIC staff are very good with weather briefings.

Some......aren't.

The TAF's at the destination airports don't even matter in this case. Not a question mark at all.

My rules for night VFR flight, have been essentially severe clear.

I doubt that was the case on this night.
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corethatthermal
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Re: Cherokee Six missing near Kingston?

Post by corethatthermal »

She asked me, verbatim, "Are you sure? If you leave right now you can make it"
I have NEVER heard a FSS specialist say those words or anything remote, Often it is the other way, painting a more negative picture than is the actual case ( post flight personal debriefing ) I CANNOT say enough wonderful things about FSS on the ground or in the air! Great folks to work with indeed !!!
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Re: Cherokee Six missing near Kingston?

Post by PilotDAR »

I CANNOT say enough wonderful things about FSS on the ground or in the air! Great folks to work with indeed !!!
Quite agreed. Though, on a couple of occasions, which were wind, not visibility related, I have been told by FSS that I'm better to go sooner than wait.
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digits_
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Re: Cherokee Six missing near Kingston?

Post by digits_ »

corethatthermal wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 8:28 pm
She asked me, verbatim, "Are you sure? If you leave right now you can make it"
I have NEVER heard a FSS specialist say those words or anything remote, Often it is the other way, painting a more negative picture than is the actual case ( post flight personal debriefing ) I CANNOT say enough wonderful things about FSS on the ground or in the air! Great folks to work with indeed !!!
I was quite surprised as well.
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Re: Cherokee Six missing near Kingston?

Post by valleyboy »

Another time and another era. Ever since the FSS revamp from back in the 80's they give very little insight into wx other than reading the TAF's and Metars which any pilot should be able to do. Prior to these days you would actually get a good wx briefing from the FSS guys or a wx briefer and if you were fortunate enough to frequent Churchill, Frob Bay and even YK back in those days you could come face to face with and actual wx forecaster and Frob and Churchill actually had both aviation and marine forecasters. They were always slightly different. Fast forward to the present and while FSS tries they are not much more qualified that a pilot when it comes to WX interpretation. I actually stopped using them when it became apparent I could get the same information without being put on hold.

I have had FSS tell me not to go and I couldn't see what the issue was. I went and he was wrong. The bad wx we encountered was not remotely close to where his concerns were. He was only looking at the forecasts and not the actual reported wx. Just looking at them it was not hard to tell things had not developed as forecast. The point being that now and how the FSS system is designed more and more pressure is put on the pilot to do his due diligence and plan a flight. Gone are the guys who are going to really catch your mistakes or offer insight to something you missed or didn't consider. A fact of life in this day of government cutbacks and streamlining.

OH Ya -- one bitch - WTF is with the graphical forecasts on nav canada. Am I confused or does wx actually adhere to provincial boundaries :mrgreen:
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Re: Cherokee Six missing near Kingston?

Post by corethatthermal »

More than once, airport and road cameras have made my decision to go or not to go !
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Re: Cherokee Six missing near Kingston?

Post by photofly »

I don't think FSS should get involved in go/no-go decision making. Next step is they get sued because they didn't tell you not to go. "The other briefer did, clearly this one *should* have, but didn't, so it's his fault my Daddy and Mommy died."

Lockheed Martin (US) Flight Services has criteria for formally warning you "VFR Flight not advised". Dont know what the criteria are, but it's irritating when they do it.
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pelmet
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Re: Cherokee Six missing near Kingston?

Post by pelmet »

photofly wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 2:47 pm
Lockheed Martin (US) Flight Services has criteria for formally warning you "VFR Flight not advised". Dont know what the criteria are, but it's irritating when they do it.
True, I can think of two flights on severe clear days where a small amount of localized fog enroute resulted in "VFR not recommended".
I think they have no choice but to say it.
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Re: Cherokee Six missing near Kingston?

Post by rxl »

Chapter 2 of the FAA’s “Pilot’s Handbook of Aeronautical Knowledge” called “Aeronautical Decision-Making” is a very good resource. I’d recommend it to pilots of all experience levels. The entire handbook is a free download from the FAA.
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Re: Cherokee Six missing near Kingston?

Post by rxl »

... and I would add that it introduces the concept of the pilot in command being one of the risk factors involved with any particular flight.
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Re: Cherokee Six missing near Kingston?

Post by jakeandelwood »

corethatthermal wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:09 pm
More than once, airport and road cameras have made my decision to go or not to go !
Yes, WX cams are one of the best tools for the VFR pilot.
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Re: Cherokee Six missing near Kingston?

Post by pelmet »

photofly wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 2:47 pm
Lockheed Martin (US) Flight Services has criteria for formally warning you "VFR Flight not advised". Dont know what the criteria are, but it's irritating when they do it.
According to this article.....

"That’s the reasoning behind a move to eliminate the VNR advisory. Nav Canada has already done away with the VNR advisory, citing nothing but complaints, and word has it that the FAA is of the same mind."

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all ... ecommended
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