New North Star Basler Accident (Number 3)

Topics related to accidents, incidents & over due aircraft should be placed in this forum.

Moderators: ahramin, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore

Illya Kuryakin
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1302
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 11:14 pm
Location: The Gulag Archipelago

Re: New North Star Basler Accident

Post by Illya Kuryakin » Thu Dec 05, 2019 9:06 pm

Freight is great. Can always go tmrw. Been involved with ops I wouldn't touch today. DC3s on skis. Some very nasty WX. Inadequately maintained equipment. No GPS. Not many NDBs. Never saw 3 prangs in that time period. Something is very wrong here. It's 2019. Pushing not required. Great machines. Experience levels? Some truth here. No excuse to be off course on an approach. Not with today's toys. Minimums are a hard number. C'mon guys. Clean it up.
Illya
---------- ADS -----------
  
Wish I didn't know now, what I didn't know then.

Mick G
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 179
Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2016 7:21 pm

Re: New North Star Basler Accident

Post by Mick G » Thu Dec 05, 2019 9:13 pm

Illya Kuryakin wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 9:06 pm
Freight is great. Can always go tmrw. Been involved with ops I wouldn't touch today. DC3s on skis. Some very nasty WX. Inadequately maintained equipment. No GPS. Not many NDBs. Never saw 3 prangs in that time period. Something is very wrong here. It's 2019. Pushing not required. Great machines. Experience levels? Some truth here. No excuse to be off course on an approach. Not with today's toys. Minimums are a hard number. C'mon guys. Clean it up.
Illya
Inexperience is the elephant in the room. Unfortunately, this is likely going to continue to get worse and worse as we deal with serious pilot shortages.
---------- ADS -----------
  

digits_
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2525
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:26 am

Re: New North Star Basler Accident

Post by digits_ » Thu Dec 05, 2019 10:10 pm

How experienced were the crews of the different accidents?
---------- ADS -----------
  
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship

2R
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3992
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 2:25 pm
Location: left coast

Re: New North Star Basler Accident

Post by 2R » Thu Dec 05, 2019 11:24 pm

Any pictures ?

Cracking the Davinci Code was easier than getting Notams regarding when the Mexican ILS being unservicable at some of these remote locations .

Three aircraft went missed from published approaches in that area about the same time , so weather was not nice at that time .
---------- ADS -----------
  

Maynard
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 432
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:33 am

Re: New North Star Basler Accident

Post by Maynard » Fri Dec 06, 2019 4:27 am

Heard the same skipper on the YFH crash as this one. Doesn’t sound like he was inexperienced
---------- ADS -----------
  
I guess I should write something here.

tigerCT
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2019 9:52 am

Re: New North Star Basler Accident

Post by tigerCT » Fri Dec 06, 2019 10:03 am

I heard one went missed at Sachigo about 30 mins before the crash, then one got in 45 mins after the crash. Sounded like WX was close to mins. Decent amount of ice. Probably just saw runway too late and tried to “circle”
---------- ADS -----------
  

Illya Kuryakin
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1302
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 11:14 pm
Location: The Gulag Archipelago

Re: New North Star Basler Accident

Post by Illya Kuryakin » Fri Dec 06, 2019 11:48 am

AC was seen circling overhead. Guy I talked to said “it was really low, and misty” verbatim. Pushing weather seems to be the inescapable truth on this one.
Don’t, as an industry, ever think we’ll learn.
Illya
---------- ADS -----------
  
Wish I didn't know now, what I didn't know then.

goingnowherefast
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1773
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:24 am

Re: New North Star Basler Accident

Post by goingnowherefast » Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:04 pm

Most (99%) of us know exactly what to do at minimums (or any other established procedure). It's the dumb 1% who will continue to screw around and crash airplanes without learning.
---------- ADS -----------
  

2112
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 24
Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2017 2:33 pm

Re: New North Star Basler Accident

Post by 2112 » Fri Dec 06, 2019 7:33 pm

Play stupid games win stupid prizes. These guys are going to kill someone it's a matter of time and nothing else. Lets hope the regulator wakes up before its too late.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Illya Kuryakin
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1302
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 11:14 pm
Location: The Gulag Archipelago

Re: New North Star Basler Accident

Post by Illya Kuryakin » Sat Dec 07, 2019 9:01 am

Is it just me, or do the ads that pop up between every post make this site almost unusable?
Flew over the sight yesterday. About 300 meters south of the threshold for 08? Headed 80 or so degrees to the south. Nowhere near lined up. Freight can wait.
Illya
---------- ADS -----------
  
Wish I didn't know now, what I didn't know then.

Victory
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 440
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:32 am

Re: New North Star Basler Accident

Post by Victory » Sat Dec 07, 2019 9:14 am

If they weren't aligned with the runway maybe airframe icing and loss of control were a factor again.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
C-GGGQ
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1742
Joined: Mon May 21, 2007 12:33 pm

Re: New North Star Basler Accident

Post by C-GGGQ » Sat Dec 07, 2019 9:34 am

Illya Kuryakin wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 9:01 am
Is it just me, or do the ads that pop up between every post make this site almost unusable?
Flew over the sight yesterday. About 300 meters south of the threshold for 08? Headed 80 or so degrees to the south. Nowhere near lined up. Freight can wait.
Illya
Just put AdGuard on my iPhone. All ads gone now
---------- ADS -----------
  

digits_
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2525
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:26 am

Re: New North Star Basler Accident

Post by digits_ » Sat Dec 07, 2019 10:18 am

Illya Kuryakin wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 9:01 am
Is it just me, or do the ads that pop up between every post make this site almost unusable?
Not just you. Long loading times and way too much battery and data usage as well. It is becoming expensive to use this website.
---------- ADS -----------
  
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship

User avatar
youhavecontrol
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 294
Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2017 8:17 am

Re: New North Star Basler Accident

Post by youhavecontrol » Sat Dec 07, 2019 1:40 pm

digits_ wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 10:18 am
Illya Kuryakin wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 9:01 am
Is it just me, or do the ads that pop up between every post make this site almost unusable?
Not just you. Long loading times and way too much battery and data usage as well. It is becoming expensive to use this website.
Yeah it was bearable before but now my phone screen jumps around as the ads load and i often end up pressing an add instead of what I wanted. It's getting crazy annoying. Gonna get an add blocker for my phone finally. This website is by far the worst I've ever seen for adds.
---------- ADS -----------
  
"I found that Right Rudder you kept asking for."

User avatar
Old fella
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1948
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 7:04 am

Re: New North Star Basler Accident

Post by Old fella » Sat Dec 07, 2019 1:41 pm

digits_ wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 10:18 am
Illya Kuryakin wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 9:01 am
Is it just me, or do the ads that pop up between every post make this site almost unusable?
Not just you. Long loading times and way too much battery and data usage as well. It is becoming expensive to use this website.
I run Ad Blocker Pro which loads through Safari on my IPad and works great as I don’t get those annoying ads on this site. I use Safari all the time from the iPad and blocks ads and unwanted info from other sites as well.
---------- ADS -----------
  

bald seagull
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 48
Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2007 5:59 pm

Re: New North Star Basler Accident

Post by bald seagull » Sat Dec 07, 2019 3:51 pm

Old fella wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 1:41 pm
digits_ wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 10:18 am
Illya Kuryakin wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 9:01 am
Is it just me, or do the ads that pop up between every post make this site almost unusable?
Not just you. Long loading times and way too much battery and data usage as well. It is becoming expensive to use this website.
I run Ad Blocker Pro which loads through Safari on my IPad and works great as I don’t get those annoying ads on this site. I use Safari all the time from the iPad and blocks ads and unwanted info from other sites as well.
What does any of this have to do with the Basler accident??
---------- ADS -----------
  

Mick G
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 179
Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2016 7:21 pm

Re: New North Star Basler Accident

Post by Mick G » Sat Dec 07, 2019 6:49 pm

Its what happened on the flight deck.....they were inundated with this pop up advertising when they lost situational awarness and put her in the trees.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Illya Kuryakin
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1302
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 11:14 pm
Location: The Gulag Archipelago

Re: New North Star Basler Accident

Post by Illya Kuryakin » Sat Dec 07, 2019 6:53 pm

Victory wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 9:14 am
If they weren't aligned with the runway maybe airframe icing and loss of control were a factor again.
Nope. Just hit the ground while wandering around trying to orientate themselves. Tops weren't high, and an RB67 can easily handle inflight ice. The other one was surface contamination picked up before takeoff. The DC3 wing is perhaps the most unforgiving in the industry for this type of contamination.
Illya
---------- ADS -----------
  
Wish I didn't know now, what I didn't know then.

User avatar
Jean-Pierre
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 315
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2009 4:56 pm

Re: New North Star Basler Accident

Post by Jean-Pierre » Sat Dec 07, 2019 7:38 pm

Are these aircraft GPS equip? How can they be 300m off course?
---------- ADS -----------
  

Illya Kuryakin
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1302
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 11:14 pm
Location: The Gulag Archipelago

Re: New North Star Basler Accident

Post by Illya Kuryakin » Sat Dec 07, 2019 11:39 pm

Jean-Pierre wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 7:38 pm
Are these aircraft GPS equip? How can they be 300m off course?
Because they weren't doing an approach. They were trying to land looking out the window? Wasn't there.
Illya
---------- ADS -----------
  
Wish I didn't know now, what I didn't know then.

valleyboy
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 469
Joined: Tue May 03, 2016 4:05 am

Re: New North Star Basler Accident

Post by valleyboy » Sun Dec 08, 2019 12:19 pm

The other one was surface contamination picked up before takeoff.
That was never confirmed, NTSB came up with that because they could not explain it. No proof of contamination was found. I still believe there was another cause.

The Basler conversion has some ugly characteristics. It will carry a shit load of ice but even clean does not have great handling characteristics for circling loaded. It is very easy to end up with an aft C of G when carrying groceries and general freight. Thus adds to handing issues. Add a little ice and the issues just keep getting worse. If anything comes out of this, a lesson to all, CIRCLING is bad and likely the most dangerous maneuver commercial aircraft ever do. It's outdated with the introduction of GPS and no need to circle in IMC A VFR circuit is not the same.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Dry Guy
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 164
Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2017 2:44 pm

Re: New North Star Basler Accident

Post by Dry Guy » Sun Dec 08, 2019 12:22 pm

I don't think the TSB did an investigation of that takeoff crash. Has anyone heard if they are going to be investigating this one?
---------- ADS -----------
  

yhz41
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 91
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2016 10:34 pm
Location: Windy Hell

Re: New North Star Basler Accident

Post by yhz41 » Sun Dec 08, 2019 12:40 pm

Old fella wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 1:41 pm
digits_ wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 10:18 am
Illya Kuryakin wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 9:01 am
Is it just me, or do the ads that pop up between every post make this site almost unusable?
Not just you. Long loading times and way too much battery and data usage as well. It is becoming expensive to use this website.
I run Ad Blocker Pro which loads through Safari on my IPad and works great as I don’t get those annoying ads on this site. I use Safari all the time from the iPad and blocks ads and unwanted info from other sites as well.
While we're on the subject, anyone know the name of a good ad blocker for android? This website is unbearable.
---------- ADS -----------
  

iflyforpie
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 7870
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 12:25 pm
Location: Winterfell...

Re: New North Star Basler Accident

Post by iflyforpie » Sun Dec 08, 2019 12:55 pm

Circling approaches are quickly becoming extinct. The last couple revisions of the CAP and RCAP have removed almost all of them. We’re running out of places to do them for PPC purposes.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Geez did I say that....? Or just think it....?

mbav8r
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1969
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2006 8:11 am
Location: Manitoba

Re: New North Star Basler Accident

Post by mbav8r » Sun Dec 08, 2019 1:07 pm

https://www.navcanada.ca/EN/products-an ... oke-EN.pdf
NOTICE OF CHANGE
Revoke the Lines of circling minima on instrument approach procedures National
NAV CANADA, the country's provider of civil air navigation services, conducted an assessment of the Circling Minima for Instrument Approach Procedures (IAPs) at the 4 Major International Airports and at 11 International Commercial Flight Aerodromes. Additionally, the circling procedures were assessed at other airports based on the criteria below.
The assessment concluded that circling approaches are not flown by most customers who prefer to fly straight-in Area Navigation (RNAV) approaches. The Transportation Safety Board has indicated that unstable approaches including step downs and circling continue to contribute to incidents and accidents
---------- ADS -----------
  

Post Reply

Return to “Accidents, Incidents & Overdue Aircraft”