Fatal Crash - Gabriola Island - Dec 10, 2019

Topics related to accidents, incidents & over due aircraft should be placed in this forum.

Moderators: lilfssister, North Shore, ahramin, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako

cncpc
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1425
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 10:17 am

Re: Fatal Crash - Gabriola Island - Dec 10, 2019

Post by cncpc »

corethatthermal wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 8:08 pm
I would imagine a back-up electrical AI would be the norm nowadays ! ( maybe even a light to inform its functionality too? ) Looking at my newly acquired project c-150 , I looked around and couldn't find the low oil pressure warning light !! Damn, twins and larger A/C have "dummy" lights for everything including smoking on the pot, so WHY has no one come up with a low oil press. light STC so the pilot can immediately look at the gauge to confirm and maybe save a life or 2? HMM, I am installing a light from the hobbs txdcr, to hell with the regs !!!
It's all about you, isn't it? Three people are dead and you"re gibbering on about smoking on the pot.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Good judgment comes from experience. Experience often comes from bad judgment.

cncpc
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1425
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 10:17 am

Re: Fatal Crash - Gabriola Island - Dec 10, 2019

Post by cncpc »

iflyforpie wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 7:56 pm
An instrument failure might not be an instrument failure, either. Your flying could be off and you don’t recognize the instrument is giving you the correct reading of the wrong control or performance.

To me this sounds like task saturation and fatigue. Single pilot. End of the day. Night. Bad weather. Pressure. Lots of strikes against and even if it was within the capability of plane and pilot... a failure occurs and you’re already so loaded up that you’ve got nothing left to deal with it.
It's possible they came all the way from Cabo that day. US Customs in Calexico or Yuma, stop in Bishop, then three hours or more on that final leg.

I think its worse to act on a mistaken belief that an instrument is broken, that for it to actually be broken. At least the things you do for partial panel do save you if you really have partial panel.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Good judgment comes from experience. Experience often comes from bad judgment.

cncpc
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1425
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 10:17 am

Re: Fatal Crash - Gabriola Island - Dec 10, 2019

Post by cncpc »

CpnCrunch wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 7:51 pm
cncpc wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 5:27 pm
Icing may well have come into play as well. static vent, pitot tube, or both.
I don't think icing was an issue. Freezing level was up at 5000ft, with no forecast icing even above that:

http://gfaarchive.info/gfaDisplay.php?r ... Offset=000

(2 hours after this GFA).
Yes, but you have an airplane coming down cold from 25,000, even a static port iced up is going to manifest an an equipment issue if the heat wasn't on, or wasn't working.

Airframe icing, yes, that should have been resolved. But subtler stuff like a blocked port maybe not.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Good judgment comes from experience. Experience often comes from bad judgment.

pelmet
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4608
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 2:48 pm

Re: Fatal Crash - Gabriola Island - Dec 10, 2019

Post by pelmet »

cncpc wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 8:37 pm
CpnCrunch wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 7:51 pm
cncpc wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 5:27 pm
Icing may well have come into play as well. static vent, pitot tube, or both.
I don't think icing was an issue. Freezing level was up at 5000ft, with no forecast icing even above that:

http://gfaarchive.info/gfaDisplay.php?r ... Offset=000

(2 hours after this GFA).
Yes, but you have an airplane coming down cold from 25,000, even a static port iced up is going to manifest an an equipment issue if the heat wasn't on, or wasn't working.

Airframe icing, yes, that should have been resolved. But subtler stuff like a blocked port maybe not.
I’m not sure. Do many light aircraft certified for known ice have heated static ports.
---------- ADS -----------
  

cncpc
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1425
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 10:17 am

Re: Fatal Crash - Gabriola Island - Dec 10, 2019

Post by cncpc »

I can't say for sure. Now. I always thought they did. I thought it was boots, electric or alcohol on the props, windshield, fuel vent, pitot, and static vent. I suppose alternate static air may suffice,but that is a setup that you have to activate when the trouble has already started.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Good judgment comes from experience. Experience often comes from bad judgment.

goldeneagle
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 724
Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2006 3:28 pm

Re: Fatal Crash - Gabriola Island - Dec 10, 2019

Post by goldeneagle »

pelmet wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 7:46 am
I’m not sure. Do many light aircraft certified for known ice have heated static ports.
It's one of the required items to be certified for flight into known ice.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Jean-Pierre
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 356
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2009 4:56 pm

Re: Fatal Crash - Gabriola Island - Dec 10, 2019

Post by Jean-Pierre »

Guys a pitot static instrument failure or blockage is not going to bring down an airplane like this because the pilot can just switch to attitude+power. A gyro instrument failure is much harder to deal with.
---------- ADS -----------
  

corethatthermal
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 391
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:27 pm

Re: Fatal Crash - Gabriola Island - Dec 10, 2019

Post by corethatthermal »

and maybe save a life or 2
My post was about equipment additions that could save lives ! An electric horizon has already saved lives, a warning light for impending engine failure will do likewise !
In any accident, we all look for ways to improve and prevent, both in our own careers and the whole !
---------- ADS -----------
  

corethatthermal
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 391
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:27 pm

Re: Fatal Crash - Gabriola Island - Dec 10, 2019

Post by corethatthermal »

My simple old Garmin 296 has a page with the 6 pack on it,,,, can get you on the ground with a pitot-static failure , however there are slight delays! Who is practicing imc with a simple instrument like this? Why hasn't there been a simple and inexpensive solution for a more advanced GPS based full ( back-up ) panel for smaller A/C ? Oh I know and you know too!
---------- ADS -----------
  

boeingboy
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1208
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2004 2:57 pm
Location: West coast

Re: Fatal Crash - Gabriola Island - Dec 10, 2019

Post by boeingboy »

My post was about equipment additions that could save lives ! An electric horizon has already saved lives, a warning light for impending engine failure will do likewise !
In any accident, we all look for ways to improve and prevent, both in our own careers and the whole !
:roll:
---------- ADS -----------
  

L39Guy
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 208
Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:04 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Fatal Crash - Gabriola Island - Dec 10, 2019

Post by L39Guy »

corethatthermal wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 10:35 am
My simple old Garmin 296 has a page with the 6 pack on it,,,, can get you on the ground with a pitot-static failure , however there are slight delays! Who is practicing imc with a simple instrument like this? Why hasn't there been a simple and inexpensive solution for a more advanced GPS based full ( back-up ) panel for smaller A/C ? Oh I know and you know too!
There are lots of eloquent, low-cost solutions that will save your bacon.

There are suction mount ADS-B receivers that will Bluetooth your phone, PDA, etc. That, with a ForeFlight and other apps can give you attitude as well as nearing info combines with navigation. It’s enough to get you out of cloud and in the clear.
---------- ADS -----------
  

RVR1200
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 2
Joined: Sat Dec 14, 2019 5:45 pm

Re: Fatal Crash - Gabriola Island - Dec 10, 2019

Post by RVR1200 »

goldeneagle wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 9:13 am
pelmet wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 7:46 am
I’m not sure. Do many light aircraft certified for known ice have heated static ports.
It's one of the required items to be certified for flight into known ice.
Maybe the regulations have changed but I owned a Canadian registered Cessna P210 that was equipped with the Known Icing Kit. It did not have heated static ports nor were they available. The kit included a electrically-heated stall vane, a nonremovable anti-ice hot plate on the pilot's side windscreen, a second vacuum pump, a heavy duty alternator, electrically heated propeller boots, an ice-light embedded in the fuselage to illuminate the pilot's-side wing leading edge and vacuum-pump-operated boots on the wings and on the horizontal/vertical stabilizers.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Last edited by RVR1200 on Sun Dec 15, 2019 8:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

jakeandelwood
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 401
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2018 11:45 pm

Re: Fatal Crash - Gabriola Island - Dec 10, 2019

Post by jakeandelwood »

Jean-Pierre wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 9:18 am
Guys a pitot static instrument failure or blockage is not going to bring down an airplane like this because the pilot can just switch to attitude+power. A gyro instrument failure is much harder to deal with.
Sure, if the pilot knows about it. There is at least one case of a pitot static blockage bringing down an airliner.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Capt. Underpants
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 273
Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2010 5:04 am

Re: Fatal Crash - Gabriola Island - Dec 10, 2019

Post by Capt. Underpants »

jakeandelwood wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 8:06 pm
Jean-Pierre wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 9:18 am
Guys a pitot static instrument failure or blockage is not going to bring down an airplane like this because the pilot can just switch to attitude+power. A gyro instrument failure is much harder to deal with.
Sure, if the pilot knows about it. There is at least one case of a pitot static blockage bringing down an airliner.
In that case (Birgenair), it was the Captain’s static air source that was plugged by a mud wasp encampment. Had they flown by the FO’s instruments instead of the Captain’s, they should have been fine.
---------- ADS -----------
  

iflyforpie
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 7974
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 12:25 pm
Location: Winterfell...

Re: Fatal Crash - Gabriola Island - Dec 10, 2019

Post by iflyforpie »

goldeneagle wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 9:13 am
pelmet wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 7:46 am
I’m not sure. Do many light aircraft certified for known ice have heated static ports.
It's one of the required items to be certified for flight into known ice.
No it is not. My aircrafts static ports are unheated and it's certified for FIKI.

What is required is a heated pitot tube (which may, but not always contain a static source) and an alternate static source for all IFR flight.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Geez did I say that....? Or just think it....?

cncpc
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1425
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 10:17 am

Re: Fatal Crash - Gabriola Island - Dec 10, 2019

Post by cncpc »

jakeandelwood wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 8:06 pm
Jean-Pierre wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 9:18 am
Guys a pitot static instrument failure or blockage is not going to bring down an airplane like this because the pilot can just switch to attitude+power. A gyro instrument failure is much harder to deal with.
Sure, if the pilot knows about it. There is at least one case of a pitot static blockage bringing down an airliner.
That would be my view as well. It is much better to prevent it icing over than to allow yourself to enter a period of undetected instrument error, then, when contemplating something might not be right, decide there is a problem with "the equipment", and then tell ATC you have a problem and try and analyze what it is. If you have a heated port, and its working, that issue never arises.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Good judgment comes from experience. Experience often comes from bad judgment.

iflyforpie
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 7974
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 12:25 pm
Location: Winterfell...

Re: Fatal Crash - Gabriola Island - Dec 10, 2019

Post by iflyforpie »

Capt. Underpants wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:59 pm
jakeandelwood wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 8:06 pm
Jean-Pierre wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 9:18 am
Guys a pitot static instrument failure or blockage is not going to bring down an airplane like this because the pilot can just switch to attitude+power. A gyro instrument failure is much harder to deal with.
Sure, if the pilot knows about it. There is at least one case of a pitot static blockage bringing down an airliner.
In that case (Birgenair), it was the Captain’s static air source that was plugged by a mud wasp encampment. Had they flown by the FO’s instruments instead of the Captain’s, they should have been fine.
But they didn't. Therein lies the problem with instrument failure: Trying to eliminate the false data and fly on the relevant data.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Geez did I say that....? Or just think it....?

cncpc
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1425
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 10:17 am

Re: Fatal Crash - Gabriola Island - Dec 10, 2019

Post by cncpc »

While not signing on to the idea that it was a static port issue at Gabriola, this is a good bit on the issue at the end of section 1 in this link...

https://www.boldmethod.com/learn-to-fly ... indicator/

It could have been a number of things, though. The autopilot at that stage wouldn't have helped. If they came from Cabo all in that one day, fatigue and weather as well.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Good judgment comes from experience. Experience often comes from bad judgment.

golden hawk
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 680
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 8:43 am

Re: Fatal Crash - Gabriola Island - Dec 10, 2019

Post by golden hawk »

---------- ADS -----------
  

trey kule
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4601
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 7:09 pm

Re: Fatal Crash - Gabriola Island - Dec 10, 2019

Post by trey kule »

Some years ago, a lear was making an approach and the pilots did not reset the altimeter.
Flew into the ocean. All killed.

Sometimes it just simple things. I can imagine being on an approach and suddenly the ground appears very close when your altimeter is telling you there should be hundreds of feet between you and it. It is dark. There is high terrain. Hard pull up and a 180. Call and say you have an instrument issue (which is sorta true). In cloud, turn gets steeper, in the climb and you are still a bit shook from seeing the ground appear real close in the cloud. The turn steepens....And that’s all she wrote

A static port blockage will really play havoc with the autopilot.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Everyone is a genius in hindsight

anofly
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 218
Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2015 6:46 am

Re: Fatal Crash - Gabriola Island - Dec 10, 2019

Post by anofly »

Well if we had the altimeter setting for naniamo at the time of the crash, we could figure out what the altimeter might have been reading, had it been left at 29.98 on the descent thru 18000 feet, mind you , a pilot would have been reminded a whole bunch of times ( handoffs, descent clearance, approach clearance etc)along the approach to reset it.
---------- ADS -----------
  

cncpc
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1425
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 10:17 am

Re: Fatal Crash - Gabriola Island - Dec 10, 2019

Post by cncpc »

The autopilot was an issue in this.

Possibly the Garmin 1000 suite.

Trey is right generally on a blocked static port making the AP very dangerous, but this was a pre-existing issue on at least the previous flight.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Good judgment comes from experience. Experience often comes from bad judgment.

trey kule
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4601
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 7:09 pm

Re: Fatal Crash - Gabriola Island - Dec 10, 2019

Post by trey kule »

Anofly.....
29.98??

Maybe we should be considering pilot error..... : :smt040
---------- ADS -----------
  
Everyone is a genius in hindsight

anofly
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 218
Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2015 6:46 am

Re: Fatal Crash - Gabriola Island - Dec 10, 2019

Post by anofly »

ooops
I have never been that high in a plane unless someone else was flying it. i seem to recall you are supposed to do something at 18000 desending.... 29.92? sheepishly....
---------- ADS -----------
  

Cliff Jumper
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 158
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2015 8:22 am

Re: Fatal Crash - Gabriola Island - Dec 10, 2019

Post by Cliff Jumper »

cncpc wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 10:35 pm
The autopilot was an issue in this.

Possibly the Garmin 1000 suite.
Would you care to elaborate on this?,,, unless it's wild speculation.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Post Reply

Return to “Accidents, Incidents & Overdue Aircraft”